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Original poster

In this current generation what is the key to social mobility for working class & lower middle?

114 replies

Nurserymumm · 07/01/2023 23:50

With brexit, not living in a gramme area & the huge cost of living crisis, social mobility seems impossible for most..

OP posts:
palygold · 08/01/2023 12:08

Agree @QueenOfHiraeth about soft skills. That can be learned behaviour...to some extent.

WillBeatJanuaryBlues · 08/01/2023 12:08

Velda they did have the opportunity and largely through proper access to grammar and technical college

Original poster
Nurserymumm · 08/01/2023 12:10

icelolly12 · 08/01/2023 10:57

@Nurserymumm with the huge cost of living crisis, social mobility seems impossible for most

I agree, I think most working class children from now on who do go to University, will largely live at home and attend their local Uni rather than move away, thus missing out on the opportunities to experience a different way of living and interacting with a range of students from across the social spectrum. We are becoming very insular in this country. 😔

This is so true & many companies now also offer unpaid internships which will exclude many very talented graduates.. Journalism & the arts for example.. You need to either live at home in London or another major city or have parents wealthy enough to pay for your rent to get a foot in the door...

OP posts:

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Cost of living
shewolfsout · 08/01/2023 12:11

Social mobility always suggests there's something wrong with being working class or lower class in the first place.

I think the better thing would be to pay working class professions more fairly (especially 'pink collar' jobs like care work and nursing) and restore less academic routes to these, and to technical jobs where we do have skills shortages, meaningful apprenticeships and technical qualifications that don't require people to be so academic

midgetastic · 08/01/2023 12:13

Education is a route out still

But

It has to be the right education- any old degree won't cut it. Learning a trade is an education as well as a university degree

And if you are not born with above average intelligence it won't help either

It's part of the solution but not all
It's not impossible for someone in the lowest classes with no money to escape but once they took away the 11+ the chances of escape becomes very small

It was only in that post war period with 11+ opportunities for the brightest ( tutoring didn't really happen ) that we saw significant social mobility

shewolfsout · 08/01/2023 12:14

Of course what's actually happen through austerity policy is we have errored adult education and made education more, not less, academic. I would think the government had an ulterior motive but I'm not sure they are competent enough to understand what the hell they are going tbh

Velda · 08/01/2023 12:15

pinneddownbytabbies · 08/01/2023 12:06

Social mobility? Depends what you mean really. Social climbing, or just being able to earn enough money to have a good standard of living?

There's a big difference. Money doesn't buy class.

The stuff you would call “class” is what your parents paid for when you were a child. Access to music, theatre, travel, books, certain expensive sports and other pastimes which require expensive equipment. A certain type of diet facilitated by expensive ingredients and parents who know how to cook. I didn’t even see an olive until I was in my 20s, never mind develop a taste for them! I requested a chess set for Christmas one year but nobody in my family knew how to play, so I taught myself from a book and played chess against myself. And this is how class is generational, because parents with class expose their children to it, and parents without class don’t. Thus the cycle continues.

midgetastic · 08/01/2023 12:16

Social mobility is important in that bright children should be able to get roles that fulfill them , and make the most of their skills for the benefit aof society

Bright children in more routine jobs on average will be unfulfilled and bored

In our families case that led to violence - taking out frustration on others

This is distinct from getting rich though

Beancounter1 · 08/01/2023 12:18

Jewel1968 · 08/01/2023 11:53

Define social mobility

Yep - this.

OP:
Do you mean economic mobility - as in being able to earn lots of money?
In which case a building-related trade might be the ticket, if the child has the oomph to be self employed, including the charm to sell themselves.
Alternatively if the child has the raw IQ then STEM could be the best route.

Or do you mean social and cultural mobility - so that they get invited to (and feel totally comfortable at) the kind of upper-middle class dinner parties where the casual conversation is about international politics and latest developments in the arts?
In which case the parent has to put in huge amounts of effort to give the child the 'cultural capital', and the child has to have a lively and curious mind, as well as the ability to transform their habits, manners, accent, speech patterns, etc..

Be aware though that society is a pyramid - there is less room at the top, and a lot of competition to climb higher. Also, massive amounts of gatekeeping going on by families at the top so that their own offspring have reduced competition.

midgetastic · 08/01/2023 12:18

I also learnt chess from a book !

but I have managed to go up the class ladder

Velda · 08/01/2023 12:18

WillBeatJanuaryBlues · 08/01/2023 12:08

Velda they did have the opportunity and largely through proper access to grammar and technical college

Pretty much gone now! And as I said, the gap is between education and employment. Giving working class people an education is useless when they don’t have the connections or location or money to subsequently get a good job. This is why we have people with first class degrees working in Asda.

WillBeatJanuaryBlues · 08/01/2023 12:19

@Fordian

German system is built in 11 plus child labelled very early on.

stargirl1701 · 08/01/2023 12:20

Long term planning.

You could aim for your great-grandchildren to become MC if you are WC. You need to be highly motivated, highly educated and earn a high salary. This will enable your children to attend public or private school. You then need to make provision for your GC to attend public or private school.

Your GGC will be MC.

Or, just live your life the way you want and let your children live theirs.

midgetastic · 08/01/2023 12:21

shewolfsout · 08/01/2023 12:14

Of course what's actually happen through austerity policy is we have errored adult education and made education more, not less, academic. I would think the government had an ulterior motive but I'm not sure they are competent enough to understand what the hell they are going tbh

I don't think education is more academic

It is narrower - and the strongest academic people tend to have a broad education and interests not a narrow one

I think they have downgraded stuff in an effort to make things accessible ( maths and physic anyway )

palygold · 08/01/2023 12:27

Pretty much gone now! And as I said, the gap is between education and employment. Giving working class people an education is useless when they don’t have the connections or location or money to subsequently get a good job. This is why we have people with first class degrees working in Asda.

Absolutely. I know of people with PhDs (though with related subject areas like Theology or archaeology) who are now working in customer service call centres, along with people who didn't continue in education beyond GCSE.

I also know of friends who have managed to secure jobs for their children, through their connections, when they're not as highly academically, or otherwise, qualified as other unsuccessful applications for the role. The same for posts in the arts.

There's also the unpaid internships, inaccessible and unaffordable for most.

Broadly speaking.

MissMarplesbag · 08/01/2023 12:29

WetLondoner · 08/01/2023 10:37

I think not being coddled and protected from failure is important too.

learn too fail and recover from losing and rejection from early.

you need resilience to get anywhere in life.

This is my experience, I was a carer to my mum and my dad retired early due to ill health. Money was tight and when I went to school, I had a lot of catching up to do. My GCSE results were mixed andI had to resit a few to do A levels.

However, I worked my arse off and got into university. Worked my way up, up skilled and wasn't afraid to do the rubbish jobs. I'm good at spotting opportunities and I'm now earning a decent amount.

My mate who is also from the same w/c class background left school at 16 and trained to be a hairdresser. She met her dp, who is a plumber, and they're both struggling financially each month. I've mentioned to her to go to college but she's absolutely against it saying it's for toffs. So there is an attitude against education which is the main barrier for upward mobility.

determinedtomakethiswork · 08/01/2023 12:30

If I were in power, I would bring back a massive range of night classes so that people could improve their prospects and their education. That's how I got into university in the early 80s. It's almost impossible to do that now as most colleges don't run a good range of classes.

Goosefatroasts · 08/01/2023 12:32

@determinedtomakethiswork

Thats what the OU is for it’s how I did my degree whilst still working.

Velda · 08/01/2023 12:43

stargirl1701 · 08/01/2023 12:20

Long term planning.

You could aim for your great-grandchildren to become MC if you are WC. You need to be highly motivated, highly educated and earn a high salary. This will enable your children to attend public or private school. You then need to make provision for your GC to attend public or private school.

Your GGC will be MC.

Or, just live your life the way you want and let your children live theirs.

I don’t think it takes 3-4 generations to become MC. I grew up in a council house but did my best to improve myself, then married a MC man who had the benefits of a MC childhood with a privately owned home and access to theatre, music, travel, well connected family members who had taste and knew about jobs and degrees, cash inheritances from grandparents which paid for our house, etc. So my kids are effectively MC and live in a privately owned home with all of the advantages and experiences that DH had as a child. There’s no way I could have achieved that on my own no matter how hard I worked.

See also the Princess of Wales, who grew up MC but had significant money invested in her education, then married a member of the UC and her children are firmly UC.

WetLondoner · 08/01/2023 12:48

It's part of the solution but not all
It's not impossible for someone in the lowest classes with no money to escape but once they took away the 11+ the chances of escape becomes very small

It was only in that post war period with 11+ opportunities for the brightest ( tutoring didn't really happen ) that we saw significant social mobility

I think a lot of people like this poster (no offence) still don’t see the real opportunities for wealth building right in front of us with all the opportunities online and the advancement of tech and decentralising finance/blockchain.

A lot of that will be who is smart enough to be in the know faster. It’s no longer about 11+

We live in a world now where the doors are open to making money irregardless of your background if you actually see what.

Societies are getting smarter and the old jobs will be getting replaced by new industries.

Backstreetsbackalrightdadada · 08/01/2023 12:48

Education (getting any grades you can). Rely on revision books if needs be.

Parental encouragement. Knowing they’ll always be there for you long term.

Not paying for education - try getting on any sponsored/ paid training courses. Accounting firms are doing this, as well as the usual trades. Know people who’ve made a fortune plumbing/roofing/elecs. Dont look sideways and see someone racking up grades and a degree and think you can’t also “make it”. Everyone takes different routes.

Living for as long as possible for free at home - but saving. Set targets.

Use contraception. Don’t have a kid if you’re still at school. Would say “don’t have one til you’re in your 30s” but have seen people pace life very well and have kids in 20s then ramp up career after.

BE ULTRA CAREFUL ON YOUR CHOICE OF PARTNER. This is often the worst long term trap if you get it wrong (for anyone).

Backstreetsbackalrightdadada · 08/01/2023 12:49

determinedtomakethiswork · 08/01/2023 12:30

If I were in power, I would bring back a massive range of night classes so that people could improve their prospects and their education. That's how I got into university in the early 80s. It's almost impossible to do that now as most colleges don't run a good range of classes.

That’s a fab idea

Backstreetsbackalrightdadada · 08/01/2023 12:49

Would love that for coding!!

midgetastic · 08/01/2023 12:54

I think a lot of people ( no offence) don't understand that whilst opportunities exist most of them are hidden from the lowest class children and most of those children don't get the education they need to be able to access those opportunities

Which is why I have said that the right education in science and tech can help
But it can't guarantee it

And the evidence is that bright children are not migrating up the class system the way they used to

pinneddownbytabbies · 08/01/2023 13:43

Velda · 08/01/2023 12:15

The stuff you would call “class” is what your parents paid for when you were a child. Access to music, theatre, travel, books, certain expensive sports and other pastimes which require expensive equipment. A certain type of diet facilitated by expensive ingredients and parents who know how to cook. I didn’t even see an olive until I was in my 20s, never mind develop a taste for them! I requested a chess set for Christmas one year but nobody in my family knew how to play, so I taught myself from a book and played chess against myself. And this is how class is generational, because parents with class expose their children to it, and parents without class don’t. Thus the cycle continues.

Show quote history

What about being patronising and condescending, which class is that?