In this current generation what is the key to social mobility for working class & lower middle?

[Nurserymumm]

With brexit, not living in a gramme area & the huge cost of living crisis, social mobility seems impossible for most..

Our government need to get into schools with the jobs that are in demand and come up with pathways for children to fill these shortages. Instead we've still got this Victorian style of schooling with pupils sat all day reciting Shakespeare which just isn't useful or interesting to the majority of children.

You need a good work ethic - that's harder to achieve in a very deprived area as you don't see people rewarded for having a good work ethic - I mean what is the point ? You telling me it matters when I can see it doesn't ?

Very true the hardest working people are the lowest earners with the poorest lives I see.

it’s about doing the smart work and solving big problems.

stacking shelves and cleaning is bloody hard work.

what I do isn’t, I’m mentally challenged but I don’t work as much nor am I even exhausted from it.

I enjoy work because it’s me thinking and coming up with ideas.

@Nurserymumm with the huge cost of living crisis, social mobility seems impossible for most

I agree, I think most working class children from now on who do go to University, will largely live at home and attend their local Uni rather than move away, thus missing out on the opportunities to experience a different way of living and interacting with a range of students from across the social spectrum. We are becoming very insular in this country. 😔

Education is key, and that means finding a school that is in a position to provide appropriate academic/vocational challenge, good pastoral care, a range of enrichment opportunities, and promote the soft skills required to navigate a range of situations.

Schools that do all those things are uncommon though. It's often a trade off for parents where you can have some of those things, but not others.

A decent education is always useful. Humans are not just industry fodder - having an appreciation of Shakespeare can improve the quality of anyone's life.
Also, lots of working class kids have excellent soft skills, in terms of people skills and manners, why wouldn't they? What is missing is what ^midgetastic refers to- knowing what's possible and the steps to take. I had no idea how to get what I wanted as a youth, and the truly successful only existed on TV and in magazines.

You need luck - you don't have the examples of good jobs to aim for in the same way as a middle class child has , you don't recognise good and bad jobs the same way ( this hit me - my idea of a great salary was "more than my parents " - turns out I undersold myself )

I come from a shit area and grew up very poor around low lives and jobless.

I mentor kids now and I always say I had no clue that these good jobs even existed.

I didn’t know anyone who even worked in an office, I had no clue what an investment banker was when I applied to uni, I didn’t even know what Canary Wharf was. I had to fight so much harder and do it all by myself too.

Music lessons in my school was pressing the DJ button on a keyboard and trying to not be hit by a flying chair.

I am not so sure on education. I have a degree, a masters and whilst doing okay I’m still in a council house living a very working class life.

If you don’t stand to inherit much money you’re fucked.

I also don’t think a university education counts for much these days. Most people I know with degrees are are earning the same or less than those that don’t. Having a trade earns more than working as teacher or for the council. You need connections to get into a well paid industry.

Education isn't a guaranteed route out

However it is almost certainly the most reliable route out

Especially if you can specialise in maths physics or computing

I totally disagree. The answer is JOBS. Traineeships, graduate schemes, entry level jobs with opportunities for further development and promotion. The sort of job that takes a new graduate and turns them into a high level employee. In all locations not just big cities. And for all people, not just those whose face fits the status quo.

Education by itself is useless. There are tons of working class kids who got good degrees but couldn’t get jobs. Because they live in deprived areas where jobs with training and progression aren’t available. Because they’re restricted in how far they can travel on public transport and their family doesn’t have a car to drive them, nor can they afford a car to drive themselves. Because they don’t succeed in interviews, because they don’t have the right clothes or accent or face or hobbies. Because their family doesn’t have any professional connections they can use to get work experience or jobs.

Yes education is important. But so many fall into that crack between university and employment, because they don’t have the resources to bridge it. These are the people who are under-employed - the working class youth who are smart and well educated but can’t get good jobs.

If you don’t stand to inherit much money you’re fucked. I wouldn't say that, BUT capital is very important indeed. My friends who have made themselves very financially comfortable have built up assets with inherited capital. Even the ability to live at home with parents and save while young is only available to those kids who have large family houses.

@Velda Yes and with so many graduates being forced to live back at home with Mum and Dad (more so those without the funds from family to help them get set up with rental bonds etc) with the COL crisis, there'll be more and more working class who live at home away from any opportunities because they simply can't afford to go where the jobs are.

Going against the grain here, even though I'm well educated, middle class, nice house in nice area, no mortgage, languages, music blah blah blah. The factors for people of my kids' generation are going to be:

Access to affordable property / inheritance

Trades - the people with the most cash these days, and choosing their working hours, are electricians, plumbers etc. DH and his 2 siblings were privately educated on FIL's wages as a white collar professional -MIL a SAHM. They wouldn't be able to afford the fees for one child these days let alone three. They wouldn't be able to afford half their property, either. The only people I know who can afford private fees are NHS consultants or property developers that made their money before their recession.

Excellent up to date IT skills

Social and professional contacts, via family / school / friends

Not being a dick and being able to work with others

Good health - which in this country is very linked to your social and financial situation unfortunately

But basically without access to cash or property, relying on a good education, the gloss of university and a desirable accent is just not enough.

But also...are there enough jobs for everyone in these higher paying fields? We need cleaners, carers, delivery drivers etc. Maybe more focus should be on giving fairer pay and working conditions in working class jobs and valuing the roles they play in our society, rather than a sort of blaming culture that I have seen from Government ministers "if you worked harder in school you'd be getting a higher wage" when in reality it isn't a viable option for everyone.

Agreed icelolly - a more equal society benefits us all

That’s already been the case for the last 10-20 years. Graduates who had to move back home couldn’t get jobs, had no cars to drive to jobs, had no money to rent flats near to jobs. As a new graduate 20 years ago I had to move back home because I had no money, and I was restricted to applying for jobs in approx a 20 mile radius which were accessible by bus. I rejected several excellent opportunities because I couldn’t get there by bus, all of which I could have driven to within 30-40 minutes if I could have afforded a car and driving lessons.

@icelolly12 i think this is why the govt prefers to focus on individual aspiration and education to ‘climb the ladder’ because it doesn’t require them to actually do anything radical about the way our society works. Also, as is pointed out in the literature on the subject, without more jobs, people need to come down the social mobility ladder to free up ‘good’ jobs and no one wants to do that, hence the hoarding that goes on as soon as you have access to decent wealth and resources.

imagine mums on mumsnet saying - well my children are a bit lazy and not that bright so I think I’m going to let their natural drift into the precarious gig economy happen so that the cleverer kids can do the stable and secure jobs lol.

Social mobility is about working class people who are smart being able to climb the ladder and get top jobs. Yes we need cleaners and delivery drivers etc, but these shouldn’t be drawn exclusively from the lower working class. And people from that class shouldn’t be forced into those jobs because the top jobs aren’t accessible to them. Meanwhile upper-middle class people get the top jobs automatically even if they aren’t as capable, because of external factors like having family money and good connections.

Define social mobility

@Nurserymumm@welcome2023

What are it wands?

I'm not sure it is education, plenty of people in this country who know all too well that a degree is no sure route to social mobility. Just a lot of over educated people doing menial jobs.

I think that social mobility is being intentionally quashed, they let the occasional person rise up out of poverty but for many the best route now is not formal education, but to gain a marketable skill like a trade.

There are many skilled trades people who earn a lot more than academics, can afford to own their own homes and car on the road etc. and had secure jobs throughout covid. This is why graduate education is a poor class marker now, because many graduates are in poor economic situations and many non graduates are much more secure financially.

Our obsession with university education is baffling, and has made most degree qualifications barely worth the paper they are printed on

And YY to IT qualifications 💯

The only under 30s I know who own their own property and on a higher rate tax salary it's because of IT jobs, and they aren't graduates or in one case, graduated but in a totally unrelated subject.

We could benefit from really targeted training in fields where there is a skills gap and deficit in the market, instead of obsessing about university as the be all and end all

@DizzyRascal

I think standards have changed on that front. It wasn't unusual in the post war years for newly married couples to start off living in the families front room of a small house.
It wasn't unusual to have digs with Landlady etc.
Renting rooms.

The richer people I know now who had no capital from family lived in extremely modest places including sleeping in train stations in. Regular basis whilst travelling around for work.
I know one who spent 6 months in a stable whilst saving up to rent a room.
One went on to own property now worth at least 2 million in desirable place the other had stratospheric success. Neither had money background or parental support.

I've got other examples but those two are my favourites.

Now a young couple expect a flat. They expect it furnished.
Etc etc.

Personally at the moment unless a young person is on an extraordinarily amazing wage how can any young person rent and save for a house?

I would imagine from the get go of working at either 18 or after uni they would need to live at home on minimal rent to gain that traction to build up some resource's?

Unless they are lucky and had parent's or grandparents who invested for them that's given them a foundation?

I would strongly advise anyone with small DC to open up a junior ISA / cash or stock's and shares.... preferably both and get saving for them.

@shewolfsout it’s a hangover from Generation X who told their kids that a degree would lead to a good job. Because in their youth that was true! The lower classes didn’t have the opportunity to go to university, while the upper-middle classes always did, and the high paid jobs were academic while manual labour was paid a pittance.

That’s no longer true but it’s so embedded in the public consciousness that the lie persists. Successive governments have pushed education as a route out of poverty, completely ignoring that wealth and education are correlative not causative. The wealthy are educated but it’s not the education that made them wealthy - being born wealthy made them wealthy.

Social mobility? Depends what you mean really. Social climbing, or just being able to earn enough money to have a good standard of living?

There's a big difference. Money doesn't buy class.