Parliamentary consultation on Assisted Dying

[BoreOfWhabylon]

You can give your views on this important subject by completing the brief survey linked in the OP of this thread. It's very short and simple

www.mumsnet.com/talk/petitions_noticeboard/4707907-please-give-your-views-on-assisted-dying-to-the-parliamentary-consulation-by-20th-january-2023-it-will-only-take-a-few-minutes?reply=122653412

Just emphasising it's a survey, not a petition. The consultation closes on 20 January.

I'm in favour of assisted dying for myself. Having seen the long, painful, inhumane, undignified, drawn out illnesses and death that various relatives have endured. Quite a contrast with the way we step in to quickly remove the suffering of our dogs when they come to the end of their lives.

@FightingOnwards I'm truly sorry you have been made to feel that way and that has been your experience.

I totally agree that ideally you should be able to draw the line yourself.

What scares me is that I get beyond the point of being able to draw the line and I'm left to suffer because of it.

Why should I or others have to suffer a painful or debilitating existence if we chose to die, just because of a third parties’ religious or ethical views?

Yes there have been mistakes in other countries. Some of these are mentioned in the Guardian article I linked above:

www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2023/jan/01/assisted-dying-seems-humane-but-can-we-protect-the-vulnerable-from-the-malign

Really? This is news to me as I know a number of people that aren't in favour of it.

People talk about what they would want to do because they think that everyone should want to.

I have a disability. The amount of people who tell me how dreadful my life must be because they obviously fear their own lives would be dreadful with my disability is unreal. But what they’re essentially saying is that my disability makes my life awful.
Most people talk about ending their lives in the broad light of day, down the pub or round the dinner table.

In actual fact only around 50% of people in countries where assisted dying is legal actually follow through after they have been given the prescription for the medication to assist them.

Anyone who has had to look after or witness a painful terminal illness death needs to support this. As does anyone who has ever put their dog down because it's sick.

People need to read the guardian article linked above.

Assisted dying is far too open to coercion and pressure.

I am in favour of ending one’s own life but I’m not sure it should be legalised. Too much scope for abuse, and there are no safeguards which would be able to prevent that from happening and from unwilling people being coerced into ending their lives or who will do so because they feel like a burden.

If I am ever diagnosed with a terminal illness there are ways and means I could end my own life if I so choose.

Assisted dying will only ever be permitted for someone with capacity, so if you want an assisted death then that assisted death will happen while you’re still lucid and have mental capacity.

It should never ever even be a consideration that someone can decide your death for you at a point when they feel it is necessary. Even if you’ve opted in or whatever.

I understand what you're saying but isn't that what a lot of people actually want?

That's the bit that scares people surely - they're beyond capacity to kill themselves and suffering, and they know RIGHT NOW (because they have capacity) that in that scenario they would chose to die? So why could / should the law never change to say that people with capacity right now can still consent to death in X circumstances and with X stipulations should they lose capacity to do it themselves? I'd basically just be writing a Will like document to be carried out when I reach the point of "cognitive death" (for want of a better term).

BTW I did say in my response to the survey that there are ethical concerns. I'm not completely blind to them. But I also believe wholeheartedly in personal freedoms and if I WANT to convey my wishes about my death and what's to happen after my death I think I should have that right.

Maybe it's because I've seen how awful life can be that I just can't understand why others would want to force someone to live it (or endure it). For what? Why? We don't do it to our pets and mine (and many others!) genuinely have a better and more fulfilling life than many many humans do! I mean imagine being someone's precious house cat ffs - that's essentially winning the cosmic lottery and we still make the decision to put them down when the time comes. So it's not like our lives are automatically somehow more special or sacred or enjoyable or more worthy of being preserved at all costs. Even if you're not at the point of painful suffering, some people are just generally 🤷🏻‍♀️ about it.

No safeguards will be foolproof.

How are you going to ensure that a woman isn’t coerced into ending her life by an abusive partner?

How are you going to ensure that a parent doesn’t opt to end their life because they feel they don’t want to be a burden on their children? Or because they don’t want to pay out all their money in care fees and instead want their children to inherit, something which might be suggested by said children.

By all means legalise assisted dying. But when you do so you need to do so in the knowledge that people will be killed who didn’t necessarily want to be but who felt they had no choice. That is 100% guaranteed.

And once you bring in the law it’s so much easier to refine it. Just look at what happened in Canada for instance.

So we might have terminal illness with six months to live tomorrow, then as time goes by they could change it slightly to allow for more general illness, disability, mental illness and the list goes on.

And assisted dying will absolutely be suggested to people, and there is no way that can be prevented.

How are you going to ensure that a woman isn’t coerced into ending her life by an abusive partner?

How are you going to ensure that a parent doesn’t opt to end their life because they feel they don’t want to be a burden on their children? Or because they don’t want to pay out all their money in care fees and instead want their children to inherit, something which might be suggested by said children.

I'm trying to understand your argument here and I can't. The abused woman and the parent who feels like a burden can absolutely go out tomorrow and end their lives quite easily? It's not difficult to make a noose and take it to the local woods or visit a pharmacy. I can commit suicide anytime I want to with very little stopping me and I can also be pressured into committing suicide too.

But if it comes to the point where I physically or mentally cannot access the things I would need to commit suicide then I would need somebody to acquire those things or do it for me and that is a criminal offence?

Mental incapacity should never ever be made legal in terms of assisted dying.

The person wanting to die should always be in a position to give consent at the explicit time the wish is carried out.

I see it like consenting to sex. You don’t have sex with someone if they’re too drunk to consent for instance, even if they consented previously.

It’s a very slippery slope to allow those without mental capacity to be killed, because they’re not there in the process and not able to consent.

And can you really not see that a terminally ill woman could be told by her abusive partner that she needs to make the arrangements for her death?

I agree in principle with the idea but I am quite uncomfortable that, as other posters have said, this is happening at a time when there is unbearable pressure on the NHS and care sectors. I have also seen it a lot on here where many posters seem to think that once you are over 60 you are simply a burden.

I watched DP die of lung cancer. At the end he was dosed up with morphine because the pain was unbearable but was still telling me he didn't want to die. Each case will be different and although I totally agree that someone who wants to end their life should be able to do so there would need to be very strict safeguards.

I am also concerned how this would be applied to people with mental illness and those with SN in a time when resources to care for those with such conditions are stretched so thin.

It's a very difficult issue and I only hope that it is dealt with sensitively and realistically. Simply saying that there will be appropriate safeguards does not necessarily mean there will be.

Thank you for posting this. It's worth digging down into the details.

yonderconsulting.com/poll/dignity-in-dying/

The question asked was:

A proposed new law would allow terminally ill adults the option of assisted dying. This would mean being provided with life-ending medication, to take themselves, if two doctors were satisfied they met all of the safeguards. They would need to be of sound mind, be terminally ill and have 6 months or less to live, and a High Court judge would have to be satisfied that they had made a voluntary, clear and settled decision to end their life, with time to consider all other options. Whether or not you would want the choice for yourself, do you support or oppose this proposal for assisted dying becoming law?

So straight away we can see that this law would do nothing for people with dementia because by the time they are likely to die within six months, they are no longer of sound mind. People with other long term degenerative conditions would also still have to go through years of suffering and 'being a burden' before they reached the timescale where they could use this law and would then still need to be able to administer the medication themself.

Breaking down the 84% figure, 49% (i.e. less than half) of respondents strongly support the proposal. 35% somewhat support.

With the exception of Muslims, most religious people are in support and there are not huge differences between religious people and those with no religion, so it would be good if people could stop dismissing concerns as religion based.

The safeguards outlined here sound OK to me for this small, specific group. I would worry this would not be enough for some people though and they would carry on campaigning to widen the criteria. This is when problems have occurred in other countries.

So put me down as part of the 35% who 'somewhat support' this specific proposal. I get the impression it's not quite what some posters here have in mind though.

Assisted dying is not the only option for a pain free death. Death is natural, like birth and with the right care, can be peaceful and comfortable, if nature is allowed to take its course.