Can 7-8 year olds be toxic?

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Name changed, hear me out. I have two dc, 12 year old with sen who has quite complex needs. Dd 7, nearly 8 who also has additional needs, mainly academically, she has global developmental delay too. Her needs are more subtle. This post is about my 7 year old Dd and her friend.. I don't know whether this is normal childhood behaviour from DD's friend for a 7/8 year old or not.

I teach my kids to be kind but also to stick up for themselves and speak up if needed.

despite Dd having some extra needs, she's very sociable, very kind and seems popular around her peers. Her teacher said she's very likeable in the class. There are some lovely children in her class but Dd and another girl are particularly close. We will call her friend Daisy. I try and encourage Dd to be friends with everyone and not be so attached to Daisy.

Daisy is quite bossy and over powering. Dd is a bit of a doormat, a bit like me, a lot of things go over her head. Daisy's mum is also a bit bossy and over powering.

anyway, I've noticed a few things about Daisy recently.

dd struggles physically and cannot ride a bike. Daisy always brings up that Dd cannot ride a bike and she can. Dd is also quite slow on her feet, Dd can ride a scooter but Daisy told her recently she can't ride properly like her, I said that Dd can ride perfectly fine.

a while ago they are at a party and there was no set food time, the kids were just told to help themselves whenever they felt like it. Dd grabbed a bit of food right at the end and Daisy said, do you really need more food to Dd. Dd put the food back... I told her to pick it back up again. Handling food and putting back isn't good either.

dd is slightly bigger than her peers, she's pretty tall and broad (like me!). Daisy is petite like her mum and on one occasion recently Daisy made a comment about how small she was compared to Dd, that Dd is bigger and she could have dd's old clothes that don't fit Dd anymore (she doesn't get DD's old clothes).

on another occasion they were walking home from school together (they also live on the same street as us so often this happens) and Daisy announced to someone that Dd has 'easy books' at school and she's 3 levels above Dd. She then asks Dd why she goes to year 2 for phonics. Dd has extra support at school.

she's also belittled my older child before.

this is just a few examples I can think of. It's been going on for a while.

I think dd is that used to it and takes it without standing up for herself. I was very much the same as a kid but I teach my own kids to stand their ground and I advocate for them too.

I don't know what else to do. Dd seems attached to her, I tell Dd to be friends with everyone because some of the girls in her class seem much nicer. But seems attached to Daisy.

I am planning to speak to their teacher and ask them if she notices anything. I think maybe daisy has trouble making friends - maybe because she acts this way to others? But Dd is a pushover so she's overly attached to Dd too?

we try and meet up with the other children from her class and encourage friendships. But it's not always easy when you have kids with sen.

I feel like we can't get away from Dd and this friendship. They live a couple doors down and they go school together!

Yeish it's really tough - there was a girl like "daisy" at my (very small) primary school. She was actually incredibly nasty and to this day is the most toxic person I've ever met...and I've met a lot 😂

She was really mean to everyone though, and not just one girl like your OP makes out, so the other parents were more supportive of each other.

I think the school is a good place to start but be prepared as they might not do anything. I think your daughter needs to be firmly told to stick up for herself. I was told this and luckily she backed off me!

The rest of our school friends are still very close but this girl has disappeared into the ether thank god!

Thank you. She could be like it with other children but I don't know, Dd is speech delayed and doesn't always tell me much about her day and a lot goes over her head - which is both a good and bad thing. i don't think daisy has too many other friends - maybe because she's quite bossy. Daisy doesn't seem to like it when DD plays with other children.

it's a difficult one because they are 'friends' so Dd isn't seeing it the way I see it! I do believe Dd could be on the spectrum but she's not diagnosed.

My goddaughter has a friend like this, also lives a few doors down. My GD doesn't have any additional needs but her 'friend' is very spoiled by her parents and likes to rub it in GDs face. My GD got a hamster, friend immediately told her parents she didn't like her rabbit any more and they replaced it with TWO hamsters. GD isn't allowed to have other friends around to play but her friend constantly has others around and will exclude GD from playing with them. She always has to have the upper hand! It's infuriating because there's only so much you can say to GD about the little brat!

Thankfully they've applied to different high schools so it should be over soon!

I don't know if it helps to think of a little girl as toxic. I know the behaviour/relationships you're describing but I don't think getting yourself worked up by a child is helpful really.

This is all about your DD and how she manages the situation - it has to be, because she's the only one you can influence. Did you talk to her after the incident with the food at the party, for example? If you think about it she was being bossed around by Daisy and then by you- and had no agency in whether she ate more or not in that situation. Obviously as her mum bossing her about is your job! But I think giving her space to think about what SHE wants is the answer and the way to do that is to discuss incidents as they happen.

Yes absolutely, my little dd is 8 & our neighbours girl was like this. Would dump my daughter the second any other child would come along then run away & hide on her. We stopped letting her out to play with this girl. It's heartbreaking as a parent to see. I call them baby frenemies, exist in childhood too unfortunately.

I am uncomfortable with calling any child toxic, especially because generally they have learnt the behaviour from adults. Some of what daisy is saying is just her observing and speaking out loud, kids tend to do this. It isn't always meant as criticism although sometimes others will hear it like that. You say you have taught your daughters to be assertive so if these things are upsetting them then why aren't they saying anything? Surely being assertive only applies in the moment to nipping things in the bud? So at the party when daisy said about too much food, could a reply not have come along the lines of 'I am still hungry so I am eating'? Maybe I have misunderstood your daughter's needs but rather than placing this all at daisy's feet, and I can see that she sounds challenging and blunt, perhaps work on nipping things in the bud then daisy will learn that to speak like that around your girls is not ok. I am crap at this too by the way but I am trying to get better. I don't want my kids to grow up silent and resentful.

At age 7 its not that the child is inherently toxic but most likely that they're mirroring behaviour and ways of talking they are socialised at home to absorb as normal.

Essentially she's probably getting it from her mum, but that doesn't mean her mum is mean about your DD, but it's probably more all pervasive - her mum makes herself feel better by making snide comments comparing herself favourably to others, so of course her daughter does that too.

Children learn by example after all.

My son had a friend like that - all become very clear when we saw more of his initially charming, eloquent, well groomed... but actually when you paid attention to what he said especially to his son and wife actually quite nasty, intolerant (and deeply misogynistic) father.

It's helpful to know that you won't get any support from the parent even if they genuinely consider themselves your friend but there's little you can really do in terms of the child "Daisy" as the behaviour will be deeply internalised (over generations quite probably).

I'd say although a child isn't born toxic obviously she's being socialised to be although atm it's her mum who is... It comes to the same thing in practice.

I'd have a short meeting and explain that Daisy seems to be unintentionally putting DD down a lot by making a lot of comparisons which is slowly harming dd's self esteem, and ask school to seat them apart and keep an ear open at play time.

Try to do some errands on the way home to avoid walking together.

It's an insidious thing and can only be addressed by reducing the time they spend together especially in conversation.

There is a child that is very controlling due to past trauma. The child is very charming and can charm all adults. However, this child is a bully and is very bright and so bullies when no one is looking. It's constant verbal and physical. Caught once and became the victim and deflected from the real victim. Child has been described as having psychopathic tendencies with a massive ego. Child feels that some others deserve all they get and no remorse for anything they do. Scary and I wonder what child will become when an adult.

There are kids like this, just like there are adults like this.
Encourage other friendships and activities such as Brownies. Discuss with the teacher. When you are with them, pick it up with Daisy everytime.
My dd3 was much like yours at the same age. Her Daisy faded out of her life in Year 4. At Secondary, DD found her crowd.

I think kids this age (often girls) can behave in toxic ways. It isn’t because they are inherently awful or evil IMO. It’s because they are finding their way, perhaps feeling insecure about something, and this behaviour is something that makes them feel bigger and more secure. Obviously that doesn’t make it ok but I think we need to see it like we would see a child who shouts or hits - it’s not because they are inherently awful, it’s behaviour they need to learn is not ok.

If they don’t get pulled up on this behaviour, and especially if it works well for them (eg queen bee types who end up popular) then yes they could turn out to be toxic adults. Just like the hitty kids could turn out to be violent adults if not pulled up on it.

Most will probably disagree with me here but I don’t think children can be “toxic” they’re just kids and chances are you’re reading into it a bit too much. I agree with the poster who said she’s saying her observations out load without thinking as children often do. I also find that most friendships with children tend to have one sort of leader and one follower. My dd is 8 and a bit of a pushover too her bff is definitely the louder slightly bossier one but honestly most of it goes over dds head and she loves her and is happy. I think have a chat with your dd and see how she feels about the friendship, remind her to correct her friend if she feels that something she has said is upsetting.

Just ask the child

how does that effect you

everytime these comments are made ask that same question

its not rude, it’s not aggressive it’s a simple question that can be repeated if not answered by the child

I agree on the point about not labelling kids but my dd's friend is like this and has been since she was 4. In fact she's an unhappy child with over strict parents who gets her aggression out in these passive hurtful ways. I explain to dd that friend is mean because she's sad and encourage her to play with someone else.

Mini mean girls - oh yes, they exist in every school.

Yes absolutely. My daughters best friend is horrible and I won’t have her in the house.

The nasty behaviour starts early unfortunately, I noticed it in reception year a lot and it got worse from there. You can usually look at the parents and see where these kids have learnt it from.

Your daughter sounds lovely and kind. I think keep doing what you’re doing, encouraging her to play with everyone, inviting other children for play dates to encourage stronger friendships with others if you can and work in on her assertiveness.

Yes to having a word with the school so they’re aware and on the look out for any issues. I’d ask for a meeting with the class teacher and pastoral/SENCo, not just casually mentioning to the teacher, as they’ll take it more seriously. Ask what specific things they can put in place to help, this won’t be the first time they’ve dealt with this. Ask for a phone call/another meeting for an update in a couple of weeks so they actually do something.

Good luck.

Gosh this takes me back! I was friends with a couple of 'Daisys', one in infants and one in Juniors. Fortunately we moved house frequently so I was able to ditch the frenemies that way.

You are doing the right things OP and I would add to encourage friendships outside of school through activity groups etc.

Sounds like she's a mini archetypal Mean Girl. Mixture of genetics and training by the mother. Try and find alternative friends for your dd and increase the distance between her and the dastardly Daisy.

Shes not toxic she is 7 , maybe speak to her mum about what she says so her mum can have a gentle word
The having old clothes is just an obsevation , at 7 they don't always have much of a filter and say what they see.
Its not like she is 10/11

How grown adults can label 7 year olds as toxic is more concerning than some of what this little child has said , who is still very much learning social norma

We moved house/schools this year and my 7 year old acquired a 'Daisy' who likes to dominate her and not allow her to play with other people. I have to remind myself they are still little and working things out rather than think Daisy isn't very nice. I think all kids lack a bit of a filter at that age anyway. We are working on DDs resilience and emphasising other friendships both in and out of school. I did raise it with school (more that DD was struggling a bit to develop a wider friendship circle) - they have some clubs at lunchtime to help with the social side of things which DD has been able to attend (teacher chooses who goes each day so mixes things up). Daisys mum is really nice and we have had a chat about it and it is something she is working on with Daisy as well (although I sense mum is a bit of a doormat).

I think some people are born nasty, some develop it through childhood trauma, some a bit of both.

I've met a few children like this, one is my ds' close friend. I would never describe them as toxic but they can be quite controlling particularly with children who are easily led (my ds). I would encourage other friendships and teach your dd strategies to stand up for herself and not allow others to control her.

I knew a little girl in my daughter’s primary school like this. She came from a ´respectable’ family, her parents were a teacher and a headteacher, and one parent was a governor at the school, which meant that she got special treatment.

She was very bright and confident and wanted to be the best at everything, and bullied anyone who she saw as competition.

She had a special friend who was a nice little girl. She completely dominated her. The other girl was only allowed to play with her, was expected to fetch and carry for her, and was treated badly if she didn’t comply. The girl’s mother told me that she purposely sent her to a different secondary school to get her away from the dominant girl. We sent our daughter to a different secondary as the girl was bullying her.

She had a group of friends who basically acted like sheep and were terrified of upsetting her. I haven’t seen her for a while but have heard that she continued to bully others all through secondary school.

I was so annoyed that she was able to get away with this behaviour. We went to the school about the bullying but they were useless, and my daughter was not the only girl she bullied.

Op, ignore the posters who say young children cannot be toxic.

A small number can be nasty, bullying and downright manipulating, all this learnt from what they see at home.