DD's only option is 'inadequate' school. Please help.

[Lemonsqueezeit]

Moved to a new area, and all the good/outstanding schools can't take dd. (oversubscribed). My last (and only) choice of school have offered her a place. Last ofsted report deemed the school 'inadequate'. I read the report and my eyes stung. The most awful, dreadful reviews. Bullying is said to be rife, in fact they received inadequate across the board for everything. This was in 2019.The school has since been moved to an academy. I cannot get any report on this school because they haven't been inspected yet.

Please tell me moving to an academy will help the school to improve? I genuinely feel sick.

I shared some of you concerns when my DS was in year 7. Year 8 has been much more settled.

Yr 7s are bottom of the pile and tend to get more of the cover an supply. They are also usually totally unstreamed. So teachers really have a hard job teaching classes of mixed ability. It doesn't mean the teaching is awful but might explain the drawing. Yr 8 has been significantly better since streaming started for some subjects. As they are now being taught in groups based on their ability to much better for staff and kids. And also the best teachers generally get the top sets. Awful but true. So enquiring as to when streaming kicks in might be worth it.

When my DC first started it was a bit of a culture shock and you could have lead yourself to believe it was the Wild West. But it's not.

You sound scared. Some of your points are really valid. Some do sound a little precious. I'd just advise you to pick your battles. Some things are common to all state high schools like vaping, fights, loud behavior in surround areas etc.

As others have said, the first week back isn’t a fair idea of how things will be. Staff will want yr 7's not to feel a huge academic jump on day 1 and feel successful and enjoy the day to some extent.

However if those figures are still similar, that would be really worrying and similar to an ‘only school we could get’ but some years ago. We've always had difficulty with available secondaries, and it got worse over the years.(home ed even as LP in the end)
Friends Dc’s at similar currently and given different era’s I was surprised how many similarities there were.

So, our Yr 7 red flags in similar sounding schools:

Minority higher Sats mark pupils expected to sit out new learning all of yr 7 while teachers attempt to bring pupils with L3 SATs results up to L4. (being encouraged to spend more time drawing than writing in English and just a couple of written lines, is familiar. It allowed the later downgrading of the level they’d entered at. School isn’t failing Level 5 pupils; they weren’t apparently correctly assessed previously.)

Do the pupils get adequate marking/feedback on their work, or is it fine they don’t because the teacher knows what level they’re at/ what needs improvement so pupil doesn’t need to know until end of term etc?

If the school has a challenging intake, then swearing at teachers is standard I’m afraid. How it’s dealt with is what counts. Is it dealt with instantly, or delayed to a more convenient time for SLT?

Do teachers have an automatic ‘back up ‘system for having a pupil removed? (SLT on corridor duty/ email gets fast response from SLT etc/)

Is assistance to teacher swift or are they on their own to deal with it? (not a red flag in schools with low disruption issues) In other words do the teachers seem supported in the situation they work in?

Is there a sliding scale regarding discipline? IE Does a child wearing subtly wrong shoes, or not having a pencil, get the same consequence as a child who makes an overtly sexual remark to a teacher or swears at them? (‘All rule breaking is the same’ policies help normalize serious issues.)

If a student walks out of detention, isolation etc early, are there appropriate consequences or is it let go? (they’ve accepted some part of consequence – it’s enough.)

Do other students consider staff response to disruptive students works? (at least short term - if they don't despair sets in fast.)
Who do the pupils think is effectively in control? Do they feel powerless about a disruptive environment? (as above)

Are girls and some boys, sexually hustled and is it dealt with effectively?(big indicator)

Are children with SN’s /visible disabilities expected to be learning opportunities for others?
Does the school downplay clear bullying as ‘Bantz,’ learning about differences etc?

Do the pupils consider most staff constantly stressed? (subjective, but yr 7’s tend not to wonder about how their teachers feel unless they are visibly stressed)

Do staff acknowledge children who hold the door open for them?
Do staff pass the door to students behind them or just let it shut on them?
Do staff generally acknowledge children who say Good Morning, even if just a nod?
(Spotted lack of these in every less desirable school regardless of ratings)

Are too many lessons low level worksheets printed of computer with a cover supervisor or ‘borrowed’ teacher marking their classes books while pupils fill word search etc sheet in?

All the above are things I wished I'd know to look for in schools where there were low educational expectations and behaviour management had to take priority, and staff had settled into ways of massaging the reality.

Also it can be worth asking local shops how they find the kids behavior. I's normal to find small shops have notices with 2 schoolchildren at a time etc, but the fact that local shops had fitted some quite extreme measures and the reasons why, would have told me a lot, had I known to ask.

There’s only you and her to consider… and it sounds like you moved first and checked school places later?

That 19% is absolutely dire. It doesn’t mean the teaching is bad, can be very catchment driven. But still - it’s really bad.

I would look into your options for moving. Find the school first then move.

Schools rated inadequate have regular monitoring visits and if the last Ofsted was 2019, I’d have expected those visits termly, followed by a full inspection before now.

Have you been able to find any monitoring reports since the last inspection?

If you are renting you are not locked into a property. Can't you rent somewhere with a better set of options?

Just looked for comparison and in the comprehensive school I'm sending my DC to next year 92.8% of pupils achieved five GCSEs grade C and above
Of those passes, 44.6% were grades A*

It is a good school in a quite wealthy area. You only get one chance in life to get an education op. I would be seriously reconsidering my location if I was you, sorry..

Just remember when it comes to reviews, people will happily if wound up, annoyed or angry leave a review to get their point across.
Not many will sit at home when their dcs are doing well , no issues etc and think 'i know ill go on google and review their school'

As for ofstead lots could have changed since then

@Kazzyhoward I disagree that parents who care about their child's education will seek other schools etc. Of course each area is different and the experience you describe is negative, however, as described on my pp, we were allocated a previously inadequate school that was academised.
Unless your child has a sibling in another school, passes the 11+ or is looked after/SEN who chooses somewhere else, then they are allocated this school - there is no other choice. In the past, a few parents have chosen to keep their child off until a place came up at a school a lot further away (some for 12 months), but for most parents, this isn't an option. Yes, there are some children in the school who have parents as you describe, however, I would say around 70-80% of the children come from 'good' families who engage with the school and have a vested interest in their child's education.(Previously, intakes were low and it was mainly children you described who attended, however, parents now have little choice as the schools in neighbouring towns are oversubscribed). The catchment area covers several small towns - some areas deprived, some affluent so there is a real mix of children.
I think a lot of it depends on the academy and the SLT. Ironically, the outstanding school that I wanted my daughter to attend has just been rated inadequate. I am glad my daughter was allocated this school - she is thriving, happy and is rewarded for her good behaviour and hard work.

@Haveagentlechristmas

You only get one chance in life to get an education op.

completely disagree with this. I know plenty of adults who cocked about in school and received next to no qualifications but returned to education as mature adults. It's not ideal and has taken them longer to achieve their 'dream' career but nothing is ever too late. A close relative's GCSE results spelt FUDGE and they are a happy, thriving adult with a great career - they weren't forever doomed, it just took them slightly longer to get there.

You only get one chance in life to get an education op.
Disagree with this but do agree we only get one shot at our children's education, so we owe it to them to offer them the best education we can.

I'd not want to send my DC to a poor quality school and bank on them being able to sort it later. If they get lower outcomes, but still pass then they won't qualify for resit classes post 16, and are unlikely to get access to the A Levels of their choice.

There's options out there if you need to gain your GCSEs later in life, and rightly so, but fewer options if you do ok, pass but don't reach your potential.

@vivaespanaole

And also the best teachers generally get the top sets.

Personal experience suggests the opposite. I was in a top set, and whilst the teacher may have been "best" according to his qualifications and years in the job, he was a terrible teacher, and we basically just had to learn it ourselves. He was a typical "old school" "this is how it's done" type of teacher, would go through one example, usually far too quickly, and then assume everyone could do it. If you asked for clarification, he'd just sigh and go through his example again in exactly the same way!

DS had the same, Maths was always his "top" subject but in year 8 he got a bad teacher (his opinion, the teacher was actually mostly an A Level teacher) and he fell down badly, getting a very low score in his year end test. In year 9, he was put down a set, and got a brilliant teacher, who'd explain things in different ways, never just one "solution", always found a different aspect to explain and would find a different example if someone asked a question or was struggling, DS quickly got back up to speed and ended up towards top of the class. He was hoping to have her for GCSE but she explained she was always allocated the "bottom" sets (not her wording, but what she meant) on the grounds that they were the ones who needed most help and she all but said the top sets could probably teach themselves so it didn't really matter who the teacher was!

You only get one chance in life to get an education

For a lot of people that is true. Yes, it's possible to "get an education" in later years, but it's a lot harder, more expensive, and many people simply don't have the opportunity to do it, i.e. in terms of being able to afford it, being able to spend the time necessary to study, etc.

Yes, it's "easier" to train for a job, especially with certain sectors/employers who provide comprehensive on the job training, say a train driver, but that doesn't give you an "education" - it gives you specific skills for a particular job. An "education" is all round skills, knowledge and qualifications in many different areas.

By far, the best and easiest way to get "an education" is to put all your effort into following the "normal" system of schools then college/university, etc., mainly because it's cheap/free/covered by grants, and also because most people at that age don't have distractions/costs such as running a home, having children, jobs, etc.

It's always going to be harder with more obstacles to try to get an "education" later in life and for many, they simply can't do it, due to other commitments or not being able to finance it, either costs of the course or loss of wages to spend time studying, etc.

@Lemonsqueezeit did you look up 2022 results yet? They’re easy to find on government website (for % with Maths & English at 5, and some other measures):

www.find-school-performance-data.service.gov.uk/

Is it normal for children to swear at their teachers? Not as common as you are describing, in most schools, I don't think. At my last school, I probably would get sworn at maybe once or twice a term, mostly from one particular year group. Students would usually get a day in internal exclusions for this, potentially longer if they were a persistent offender or there was racist etc abuse involved. Not good for it to happen and there by no sanction.

I don't know the context of these remarks, so really could be nothing. I don't think it's nothing if it's bothering your daughter.

I really don't know the context of these lessons, so thinking (hoping) all fine. I don't think any of this sounds like it's fine. It may be that she's not in the most appropriate groups for her right now, and maybe in the context of the lessons, some of these activities are fine, but it doesn't sound like there are high expectations of the students.

Fair enough he had been ill, but I've emailed him since about an issue with uniform and have received nothing back. Does this need to go via the head of year, or could it go via the form tutor? Bear in mind a HoY may be dealing with over 200 children, in general they will prioritise higher level concerns. In most schools, day to day stuff e.g. lost uniform, or not having correct uniform will go through the form tutor.

Does any of this sound concerning to anybody, or do you think that this is pretty much standard? I don't think this is standard no. I think this sounds like a school with problems. Mumsnet will tell you that your child will be fine anywhere, whilst their child is in e.g. a high achieving grammar school with minimal behaviour issues. It sounds like the school has low expectations of student behaviour and work. That will lead to poor results for students AND high staff turnover, which will make the problems worse.

Honestly, none. I could appeal for one of the other schools but they are very oversubscribed and don't really rate my chances but I might do it anyway. Two outstanding privates also, but can't afford the fees.

You have absolutely nothing to lose by appealing, and I really don't understand why you haven't. Lots and lots of students do get into oversubscribed schools on appeal, and you will probably be the only one appealing for a space in your daughter's year group at this time.

On this thread it sounds like you are trying to persuade yourself that everything is fine and your daughter will be fine but you're describing a school with what sounds to me like relatively deep seated issues. These will not be a quick fix, and becoming an academy does not automatically fix problems.

Given the current landscape of teaching in England, many of the teachers in this school will be able to find jobs in other schools for September should they wish to. If they're being constantly sworn at and the school is generally disorganised or has other issues, some will leave. They may or may not be replaced. You may find that some of the teachers your daughter has already are long term supply or short term cover, hence the lower expectations of work in these lessons.

I don't mean to be harsh but I have worked in a school like you're describing and it's not a nice place for students or staff. It's not something I would accept for my child. You have chosen to move to a new area, so you need to find a way to get your daughter a decent education in this area.

The DD does have the offer of a place though, so technically does have a school place.

You sound scared. Some of your points are really valid. Some do sound a little precious. I'd just advise you to pick your battles. Some things are common to all state high schools like vaping, fights, loud behavior in surround areas etc.

Agree loud behaviour is common to all secondary schools. But the others really aren't. Occasional fights, maybe, but not regular, serious ones. I'm not talking about horseplay, but teenagers really going at each other and wanting to hurt each other is really quite rare.

Vaping is an increasing issue, but that doesn't mean the school should throw its hands up and say "oh well, we can't do anything about it".

There is a huge difference between schools that take these things seriously, and schools who don't.

Ignore.

Memo to self : remember your ny resolution about reading the whole thread? Couldn’t manage it for a week? shame on you.

Honestly OP, as a teacher I would move house to avoid a school as you describe. Get into a different catchment area for a different set of schools- even if it means a longer commute to work for you.

Considering this if all else fails. I don't really understand. or know the specifics of living in catchment areas. The school she's at now is the closest to our postcode. The other schools are about 2-3 miles away. I am wondering if we move to the postcode of the better school, we would stand more of a chance?

Could you use the Locrating app to look for schools further away that might have space in her year group?

This is another area I'm considering if appeal doesn't work. It's not ideal because she has a nanny that picks her up and I'm not sure the logistics would work. But it's certainly an option. Thank you for mentioning it.

Yr 7s are bottom of the pile and tend to get more of the cover an supply. They are also usually totally unstreamed

Do you mean unstreamed because they haven't been placed into sets? I was told by the lady who showed us around that after October all Year 7 children would be placed into sets. I was told she would be doing some baseline tests, but she hasn't done them yet. DD has told me this evening she is only in a different set for maths, for the other core subjects she is still with her original form group.

You sound scared.

Terrified...I feel like a complete failure and that I've let her down and it's starting to affect my MH. I cry sometimes when I drop her off. I am concerned about the behaviours and active swearing to teachers' faces from the other children. I've already noticed more challenging and cheeky behaviour from dd. The school is in a very run down area of town and seems very local to that specific area. I know this because there are no school buses and the teacher said that most children either walk or get a lift in. The surrounding area also smells heavily of Cannabis.

@Ellieherd - You ask many valid questions that unfortunately at this stage I do not the answers for.

That 19% is absolutely dire. It doesn’t mean the teaching is bad, can be very catchment driven. But still - it’s really bad. Did you look up 2022 results yet? They’re easy to find on government website (for % with Maths & English at 5, and some other measures):


Okay, so the results were actually taken from the summer of last year. This is what it says on the top of the page.

"Uneven impact of the pandemic on 2021/22 school and college performance data
We recommend:
Not making direct comparisons with data from previous years or between schools or colleges.
Discussing with the school or college factors that may have influenced these results and consider a range of information when forming a view on how well a school or college is doing, including pupil/student population information".

• Progress 8 score is -0.7 (LA average is -0.28, National for Eng -0.03
• Grade 5 or above in Maths and English 19% (LA 45%, Eng 50%)
• Attainment 8 score 37.8 (LA 47.2, Eng 48.7)
• EBacc average point score 3.43 (LA 4.11, Eng 4.27).

Maybe somebody with more knowledge could explain a little more about what these scores mean, if anything.

Have you been able to find any monitoring reports since the last inspection?

No, but I am actively looking and will contact edu department tomorrow to see if I can have a read about how things are going.

If you are renting you are not locked into a property. Can't you rent somewhere with a better set of options?

If the appeal fails, then this must be an option. Before securing the property I had to put down 6 months rent in advance. Was the only way. That runs out in May. My landlord is brilliant though so perhaps I could move sooner.

Does this need to go via the head of year, or could it go via the form tutor?
It was the hoy who actually told me to contact him for if I had any concerns to email him. I haven't been given any other contact apart from the main school one. I use this now, or ring reception.

You have absolutely nothing to lose by appealing, and I really don't understand why you haven't.

I wanted to give this school a chance and didn't really rate my chances of an appeal. I'm a single mum who works 60 hours a week. It's so tough sometimes, everything feels like such a battle at the moment. My MH has taken a bit of a hit, as my general health isn't the best sometimes because I have an autoimmune disease. I will make some time this week for it to be a priority.

Is one of the schools they’ve been rejected from very close? If so, it’s worth an appeal.

Maybe somebody with more knowledge could explain a little more about what these scores mean, if anything.

A Progress 8 score of 0 means the children in that school performed in line with other children of similar abilities in other schools. Roughly speaking anywhere from -0.3 to +0.3 would be a sign that the students are making reasonable progress. Deviating lower than -0.3 is starting to show the children are making less progress than peers in other schools.

It sounds like a lower attaining school, probably with a narrow curriculum for some, if not most, of their pupils, and even their core subjects don't perform well.

Unless I felt that the leadership team were very quickly turning the school around, I'd be seriously looking at other options.

When you were deciding to move, presumably you looked into all the possible schools, not just this one. Are any of the others better?

Just to give an alternative view op, my DC went to an ‘outstanding’ rated school that has two week’s worth of appeals every year with people trying to get their children in. For my dds - bright, compliant kids - the inhumane pressure and sanctions they put on all pupils wrecked their self esteem and mental health and have been put off education for life. They barely scraped college and didn’t want to go to uni.

I wish I’d sent them to the local sink comprehensive which was like Jack Whitehall’s ‘bad education’ when I went there… but at least the children enjoyed it, formed bonds and scraped through their GCSEs in the end. I know just as many pupils left there and went on to get good degrees and professional qualifications as I do the supposed outstanding one.

3.7 miles. I don't think that's too far.

I've already noticed more challenging and cheeky behaviour from dd.”

After 4 days?
I expect her behaviour is simply related to starting in a new school and / or moving area, and / or just one of those things cos most 11/12 years olds have little phases of pushing their luck.