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Archetype Podcast Ep ‘The Demystification of Dragon Lady’

55 replies

RandomPenguinHouse · 11/10/2022 14:16

I was having a discussion about this particular episode and the stereotype (NOT archetype!) it discusses on another thread in another section. I and some others thought that Meghan Markle’s introduction of it was tokenism. Many other posters were dismissive of that, calling it ‘tokenism nonsense’. This is despite myself and at least one other poster saying we were Asian/of East Asian culture.

So I’m taking the discussion over to here and opening it up. I’d love to hear others’ views of this episode specially and the representation of East Asian women in film & TV generally.

I’ll add a transcript shortly.

OP posts:
jeffgoldblum · 11/10/2022 14:27

Arriving early, to pull up a chair 🪑!

RandomPenguinHouse · 11/10/2022 14:31

Welcome! I’m about to go into a meeting but will post more about my thoughts later.

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LondonWolf · 11/10/2022 14:31

I cannot listen to MM's syrupy voice but would be interested to read a transcript and see others takes on the podcast.

Interested in this thread?

Then you might like threads about this subject:

jeffgoldblum · 11/10/2022 14:36

@LondonWolf , 🤣 I'm glad you said that! I've only heard her talk once for two minutes, had to turn off , really irritated me for some reason! , thought I'd be slaughtered if I said this on tother thread! 🤔

jeffgoldblum · 11/10/2022 15:00

the-take.com/watch/the-dragon-lady-trope-reclaiming-her-power
Hope this works!
Wonder what you think about this?

jeffgoldblum · 11/10/2022 15:02

And I think random mentioned this? www.express.co.uk/news/royal/1678201/meghan-markle-stereotype-dragon-lady-lucy-liu-archetypes-podcast-spt

AnorLondo · 11/10/2022 15:34

How many threads does there need to be about Meghan and her podcast?

Ohnonevermind · 11/10/2022 15:34

Hollywood is really lazy, do you the stereotyping has extended beyond Hollywood and has it improved ?

I do remember the throw away horribly dismissive line in Bridget Jones Diary about Mark Darcy’s first wife. It always stayed me.

jeffgoldblum · 11/10/2022 15:36

@Ohnonevermind , yes ! "Very cruel race!" I believe! 😮

RandomPenguinHouse · 11/10/2022 15:58

AnorLondo · 11/10/2022 15:34

How many threads does there need to be about Meghan and her podcast?

That’s a good Q. I was posting on the only one I saw but got a lot of abuse because… an assumption that I was ‘anti’ Meghan when I was criticising (and praising) the podcast, an insistence that nothing critical was said about her, ignorance and racism.

I didn’t like how racism against, and the stereotyping of, East Asians was so easily dismissed by people who wouldn’t do this about other cultures. I was also told repeatedly that I wasn’t welcome by the OP of that thread. So I started this one.

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RandomPenguinHouse · 11/10/2022 16:13

Here’s the transcript of the podcast btw @LondonWolf

storage.googleapis.com/pr-newsroom-wp/1/2022/03/Archetypes-Episode-4.pdf

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Jibbajabba1 · 11/10/2022 16:43

Great to see this thread! The calibre of the chat has already vastly improved!

MM’s podcast was a bit superficial and boring for me, so I won’t discuss that anymore.

Has anyone read Said’s seminal works on this subject? Illuminating

jeffgoldblum · 11/10/2022 17:39

Sounds interesting, I will definitely look that out to read !

Jibbajabba1 · 11/10/2022 17:44

‘I didn’t like how racism against, and the stereotyping of, East Asians was so easily dismissed by people who wouldn’t do this about other cultures.’

This x100! I’d also extend that also to certain Middle Eastern and south Asian cultures too. Instead, parts of these culture are commodified, appropriated and fetishised.

Jibbajabba1 · 11/10/2022 17:51

Slightly off topic, does anyone remember the Calormens in the Narnia books? I remember feeling v disappointed reading that when I was a kid!

thanks again for starting this thread OP, it’s so nice to be able to share a thought without being harassed and told that I’m not allowed to join in!

jeffgoldblum · 11/10/2022 18:06

I'm sorry to say no, I only read the first book and saw the rest as films, I can't recall seeing it mentioned in films? . I find the Asian school girl fetish the most troubling, it appears in many mainstream films and tv! .

Ohnonevermind · 11/10/2022 18:20

My first introduction to Asian cultural history was The original ‘Monkey’ series from the late 70’s based on the monkey king legend. We used pull hairs out of our heads and blow on them like he did to make a weapon. My brother tracked me down a copy of the series for my 30th birthday but I lost it when I moved back to Ireland from the U.K.

jeffgoldblum · 11/10/2022 18:29

Ohh @Ohnonevermind , I loved monkey !!!
Born from an egg on a mountain top,
Funkiest monkey who ever rocked!

I still have my boxset! , I quite liked the water margin too!

jeffgoldblum · 11/10/2022 18:31

Also I think you should know , we're all ransoms mates now apparently!!

jeffgoldblum · 11/10/2022 18:32

Not that I'd mind ! 😉

Gingerkittykat · 11/10/2022 18:33

I thought the subject was interesting but it didn't go into much detail which I suppose is to be expected in a short podcast.

Ohnonevermind · 11/10/2022 18:39

The podcasts can’t do enough in the short period of time, how could they.

hysterical/crazy women deserves a whole series to itself

RandomPenguinHouse · 11/10/2022 19:11

OK I've got some time to properly sit down at my laptop now and properly consider whether Meghan's introduction to this specific podcast episode was 'tokenistic', as claimed by some on MN and elsewhere, including in the East Asian American community:

MEGHAN: Growing up in Los Angeles, these are the types of foods I would eat: tamales, ghormeh sabzi, larb, matzo ball soup, adobo... along with your usual kid fare of chicken nuggets and fries and burgers and pizza. And the types of languages I would hear? Honestly, more than you can imagine. From Armenian to Farsi, Korean, Spanish, Hebrew... Los Angeles, despite how segregated it sometimes felt, was full of culture that you could see, feel, hear and taste on a daily basis.
The multitude of Asian cultures was a huge part of that for me. My weekends were spent in Little Tokyo, or having iced teas in Thai Town, or sitting with my friend Christina Wong and her parents at a local Chinese restaurant. I remember this so vividly and them teaching me why chow fun with dry noodles was so much better than chow fun with wet noodles. Now obviously I had a real fixation with food (not much has changed there), but more than that, I had a real love of getting to know other cultures.
And part of that, my mom and I would often go to the Korean spa together. Now those of you who haven’t been to one before it’s a very humbling experience for a girl going through puberty because you enter a room with women from ages 9 to maybe 90 all walking around naked, and waiting to get a body scrub on one of the tables lined up in a row. All I wanted was a bathing suit but you’re not allowed by the way. And once I was over that adolescent embarrassment, my mom and I, we would go upstairs, we would sit in the room upstairs, having a steaming bowl of the most delicious noodles, and we’d look around at all of these other women. These beautiful Korean women who had embraced the generational tradition of the jimjilbang and shared it with one another.
Now that was a part of the Asian American culture that I knew. I hadn’t known all the stigmas and archetypes that so many women of Asian descent specifically had faced until many, many years later. Those terms, ideas, and stereotypes they just - they weren’t familiar to me. Like the ones we see in so many movies and throughout pop culture...

OP posts:
Jibbajabba1 · 11/10/2022 19:13

I’d also be interested to hear opinions on recent portrayals, such as Crazy Rich Asians and Awkwafina Is Nora from Queens. Are they seen as a step in the right direction? Reductive? Or generally positive?

RandomPenguinHouse · 11/10/2022 19:39

Ok so my opinion, the above intro from Meghan does qualify as tokenism.

Whilst food is incredibly important in all the East Asian cultures (although I can't speak for all, only Chinese) talking about the food at length like this does feel reductive. This may be just me, but for me it's reducing East Asian culture to a service industry.Which absolutely is a trope that has often been used in a racist way. I wouldn't feel like this if she'd talked about the food at specific Chinese festivals, of which there are many and which the food plays an inherent part. Nor is she even for example talking about having Sunday dim sum, which would be an equivalent to talking about the British cultural tradition of having a Sunday roast.

Throwing in her friend's name there is very cringeworthy, especially if we don't know if CW gave permission. It is very 'my Chinese friend', and I absolutely think that if a white person had done it, then they would have been called out more. Of course Meghan growing up where and when she did would have had Chinese/Chinese American classmates and acquaintances and friends. She doesn't need to try and authenticate her experience by naming them.

An argument made elsewhere as to why this isn't tokenistic is that Meghan was setting out the stereotypes and then allowing her guests to talk about them. But that isn't happening! She talked about stereotypical things from (East) Asian culture that revolve round services where you pay East Asian people to provide you with things (food or massages). This could have been a really interesting point that she made and which threaded into the discussion with her guests, but she didn't do this. Instead Meghan says that she wasn't aware of the stigmas and stereotypes that boxed in Asian women. She wasn't aware of it. And she or her staff should have been.

The main 'archetype' of the show - the dragon lady - did not tie into the above. The other main stereotype of East Asian women, that is much more racist in my view, is that of the submissive 'Lotus Blossom' or 'Lotus Flower'. That could have been tied in well to the above in the way I talk about - servicing Westerners - but it only got a 7-word specific mention. Which would be OK if it wasn't then muddled in to the discussion of the dragon lady trope somewhat.

Another point made elsewhere was how far Meghan can go with this podcast if discussing stereotypes that aren't in her experience. I think there's no problem with her leaving it to her guests to talk about their experiences and the stereotypes they experienced. However unfortunately in this, we didn't get enough of their voices. I would have like to have heard Lisa Ling and her daughter's own voices describe themselves, not hear the descriptions in Meghan's voice. I guess that is a problem with the format of her podcast and it being driven by Meghan being Meghan (this sounds snarky, I don't mean it like that, I mean by her as a worldwide 'personality'). I liked her as a conversationalist and interviewer, but the intro was a bum note. Shame as it wouldn't have taken much for it not to be.

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