Lucy Letby Court Case

[Pebble21uk]

Today has been the first day of the trial, which is expected to last for six months. One thread has already been pulled on the subject. Upon deletion MNHQ said that a thread about the case is fine but please read the rules around contempt of court before posting... these are copied and pasted here:
Publicly commenting on a court case:

You might be in contempt of court if you speak publicly or post on social media.
For example, you should not:
say whether you think a person is guilty or innocent
refer to someone’s previous convictions
name someone the judge has allowed to be anonymous, even if you did not know this
name victims, witnesses and offenders under 18
name sex crime victims
share any evidence or facts about a case that the judge has said cannot be made public

If any of the above take place then new threads will also be pulled. Let's please try and keep it going!

As a NICU parent, I know that mistakes can happen.

• they're usually noticed quickly (eg regular blood sugar testing to balance insulin/glucose requirements, other testing such as blood gases etc)
• if nurses aren't sure about something or something doesn't look quite right, they often confer with a colleague, or doctor if particularly concerned
• most drugs (not all) are controlled carefully & cross checked once drawn up

Nurses are trained to log everything, from details of nappy changes, to test results, to timing of feeds and medicines. Drugs definitely have to be to avoid potential overdoses.

If a drug was given in error, it should have been logged, making it clear what had happened when someone went back and looked at the notes. If a drug was given and not logged, there is likely to be more questions over intention, but this doesn't mean it was done maliciously.

@EgonSpengler2020 - totally agree

The six children mentioned in todays proceedings were made up of 3 sets of twins. That is very unusual.

Twins have a much higher rate of prematurity, so not unlikely that they would be disproportionate numbers of twins on NICU.

I’m a nurse - many of us have done a meds error at one time or another. It’s an extremely stressful thing to have happen to both you and the patient and you never forget it.

I feel for the others working on that unit - it must’ve been a terrible time for everyone involved and quite scary once fingers started being pointed.

I meant to say in my post - that’s not plural - I’ve made one meds error so far in my career. It’s the same for most - you don’t go around making a load of errors constantly, you just can’t.

This article is worth a read - or the whole PhD (link at bottom of article) if you can be bothered with a very long read. www.adelaide.edu.au/news/news25542.html

I'm not sure it is, really. It appears to be taking a priori the fact that there was a legal case as proof murder took place. Some of the cases against medical practitioners are composed entirely of the allegation that more people died on a given medical practitioner's shifts than "should" have. And statistics have been grievously misused in court by lawyers and judges; just ask Sally Clark (if you could).

6 months is a long time but I hope to be following this case. I am keen to hear what the her lawyers will argue.

With regard to those saying this thread is distasteful, while it is a tragic case ultimately it is natural it will attract huge public interest and that people want to discuss it. It is human nature. Also, it is a key part of our justice system that trials take place in public where they can be scrutinised. Part of that is being able to discuss them (within the bounds of what is allowed).

It is such an unusual case and it will be interesting to see the evidence from the prosecution that goes beyond circumstantial. It will also be interesting to see who speaks to the press after the verdict, regardless of which way it goes. I can imagine there is a lot the press are not disclosing at the moment to comply with reporting restrictions.

aye I’m sure they have 🙄

LL has been held in HMP Peterborough on remand. Peterborough is the only UK prison to hold both men and women (in different sections). It has a remand wing and a mother and baby unit.
There have been issues in the past with female prisoners who have been charged with crimes against children being attacked before or during trial (see Emma Tustin). There is always safeguarding in place for high profile / vulnerable prisoners but having worked in a prison myself - unfortunately attacks do take place.
Most vulnerable prisoners are held in VPUs (Vulnerable Prisoner Units) once sentenced, but obviously that is not applicable at present.

^ normally jury service of 2-3 weeks is fully paid by employers, and jurors can claim for loss of earnings if they don’t get paid (but it’s not a huge amount, something like £70/day)

In companies I have worked at it would be discretionary for a long trial BUT I suspect many employees would plea to serve only on a short trial; long trials are v v unusual

It wouldn't be unusual for a nurse to take action for a baby which is not assigned to them. For example, if a nurse is allocated 2 babies, they may be changing a nappy or feeding one baby, while a monitor beeps for the other baby. Another nurse is likely to check what the monitor is saying, and take any necessary action.

This is going to be a long and complex trial. It will be traumatic for all sides. 6 months seems an unbearably long time to endure for the parents of those babies, but at least it will be thorough.

I agree with this. There have been so many miscarriages of justice over the years due to people thinking "that happened too many times, it can't possibly have been a coincidence!" which turn out to have been.... a coincidence. And if you have on top of that a defendant who isn't very likeable..
Anyway, I hope if she is found guilty it's on clear evidence, not a feeling of it being too suspicious a series of events for her to be innocent.

Regarding jury service

you are only legally obliged to be available for two weeks

before being allocated you are asked if you are able to commit to a longer stretch

anything above 2 weeks is optional

I reserve any judgement until we hear a motive

there’s been no suggestion of one and she worked there problem free for a few years previously

Horrible. Especially if not yet found guilty of anything and under a presumption of innocence. That doesn't sit right with me. And for such a long time.
Not right.

Re the jurors - I am wondering how they are being kept away from media coverage of this case, are they having to stay in hotels?

I think this has been the case for other long & high profile trials. Obviously this is a terrible case, and will be complex to argue. I feel for the families & the staff on the ward.

vpu are also open to remand prisoners

thats were for example remand sex offenders go or remand police officers

you couldn’t possibly keep jurors away from media coverage unless you put them all in a big brother style house with no internet access or contact with the outside world

They aren't being kept away from media, its pretty impossible in this day and age.

According to media court reports - the jury are being advised they are not prohibited from using social media, but they should ignore comments made on there in relation to the trial, and to understand that media reports will be "selective" and focus on only parts of the trial.
Jurors are also urged not to research additional evidence, outside of the courtroom, in relation to the case in any way.

Thanks @SunburstsOrMarbleHalls

Without going into details - the case of the doctor does highlight the misuse of statistics and psychological biases when you think you see a pattern. There is also the famous case of Sally Clark where statistics were misused and she was jailed.