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Teaching assistants quitting schools for supermarkets because of 'joke wages'

698 replies

noblegiraffe · 09/10/2022 14:16

Finally getting some mainstream press attention:

www.theguardian.com/education/2022/oct/09/teaching-assistants-quitting-schools-for-supermarkets-because-of-joke-wages

The article is very clear that schools cannot afford to pay higher wages for support staff. The DfE comment at the bottom says it is up to schools to improve support staff pay.

The education sector is falling apart. Teacher redundancies mean bigger class sizes. Fewer teaching assistants means zero in-class support unless your child has an EHCP. Recruitment issues mean that even if your child has an EHCP, they might not be able to hire anyone to support them.

The way provision for the most vulnerable students has been eroded over the last decade of school underfunding is devastating.

OP posts:
Karrots · 10/10/2022 23:11

@motherofthelittlescreamingone

I think the difference in what you’re describing is the role of a TA has significantly evolved beyond what people think of as a reading coach etc., which certainly my DCs school still asks for parental volunteers for. People see TA and think that’s what the role is still.

In my school TAs work with children with EHCP plans which denotes a significant SEN need. Non-verbal child, potentially volatile violent behaviour, toileting needs age 10 and specialist medical interventions etc. This requires people with specialist knowledge and skills and as you can imagine there are some very significant safeguarding issues. Giving volunteers a DBS check and thinking they can rock up for the day to do this is akin to asking for volunteer surgeons as someone watched Casualty once.

I’m guessing in the 90’s there weren’t 3-4 children in your class with diagnosis of Autism, ADHD, Aspergers, ASD and combinations of etc. Different times.

been and done it. · 10/10/2022 23:13

UWhatNow · 09/10/2022 14:32

In some ways I’m glad. TAs are routinely asked to take on the most challenging kids in the class with few qualifications, little training and shit pay.

It’s a national scandal that education is delivered to the most needy like this and the group that are largely exploited are women looking for term time work to fit in with families. If a class teacher needs an assistant they should be trained and paid at professional levels.

My DIL went in to school when none of the teachers would turn in at the beginning of the pandemic. She actually had to take classes for which she had no qualifications. She had to clean and disinfect the classrooms before and at the end of the day going in much earlier and staying later. She now has to deal with children who refuse or who are unable to sit in a main stream class- She has no training for this and is just expected to get on with it. Her pay is bloody disgraceful- so I'm not surprised they're leaving in their droves. I don't blame them.

Karrots · 10/10/2022 23:13

@motherofthelittlescreamingone

Sorry cross post.

Interested in this thread?

Then you might like threads about these subjects:

cantkeepawayforever · 10/10/2022 23:13

Agencies exist to provide supply teachers. Post Covid, there seems to be very little use of agencies.

In the main, most of the old supply teachers had to get employment elsewhere during the pandemic. Now schools can’t afford agency fees and use TAs to cover teachers and nobody to cover TAs. Even schools that had supply budgets spent them very quickly at the start of each year with Covid absences so high, and had to use internal cover from then on.

motherofthelittlescreamingone · 10/10/2022 23:16

Thanks @Karrots

I agree - it must be the level of need. To be honest, I do recall having kids with extra needs or behavioural issues in school, but none so extreme in terms of violence or disruptive. And to be honest, those who obviously had SEN (whether or not diagnosed - I wouldn't have known as a fellow child) were definitely underserved - I wouldn't want to go back to that situation where as long as not disruptive, SEN kids got nothing special now.

been and done it. · 10/10/2022 23:25

conkercollector · 09/10/2022 15:08

People have no idea of the reality. Most TAs in my primary school are now 1:1 supporting children whose needs are so severe that they are a danger to themselves and others if left alone. There is little job satisfaction in chasing round after a non-verbal 5 year old who doesn't want to engage with anything.

However, TAs are also used to cover all teacher PPA time, training time, sickness absence be absence schools can't afford supply teachers. I would say the pressure of having to constantly cover classes is an even bigger reason why TAs at my school leave than the pay.

Absolutely spot on

Ithoughtthiswastherehearsal · 10/10/2022 23:30

justasking111 · 09/10/2022 14:33

Schools need a radical shake up, thinking volunteers here as TAs. I've worked for a charity organising volunteers . Complete with enhanced CRB checks. Hospitals are using them. Why not schools

What about a volunteer government instead?! We can use some of the money saved not funding a shitshow to look after vulnerable children instead.

Dinoteeth · 10/10/2022 23:31

I'd agreed really disruptive children were removed / send to special schools in the 80s.

In primary in the early 80s a girl arrived in my class. Rumour had it she was expelled from another local primary. She lost her temper with the class teacher. Kicked the deputy head. And had a meltdown in the playground. She was removed after about 3 days.

Looking back I'm sure she must have had something, possibly ASD but I'd guess she was moved to a special school.

I think it must be horrendous if kids like that are kept in mainstream school without support.

CurlyhairedAssassin · 10/10/2022 23:53

Rosewaterblossom · 10/10/2022 22:52

Which is the case for a lot of jobs nowadays. Not saying its right people aren't paid more, but so many jobs require lots of higher skills nowadays without the financial reward.

My sister works in a school but as a cook, she works for an outside catering company. She's had to do her food hygiene to level 3, an nvq 2 in catering with maths and English too, food allergens level 3, manual handling courses. She handles some very high risk equipment, is lifting heaving equipment, is in charge of supervising the staff in the kitchen, does all the never ending paperwork with daily/weekly/monthly checks plus half termly stock takes. Does the ordering, cost comtrols etc. Never ending cleaning, is responsible for preparation and serving children with food allergies, some of which have an epi pen. Her and the staff serves over 200 children each day, has to have everything washed up and cleaned to a high level.of cleanliness, sets up and puts away a hall of god knows how many chairs and tables.. the list just goes on, all whilst wearing hot ppe. But she's only earning just over £10 an hour. The point is, I'm not trying to demonstrate a race to the bottom, but so many jobs are full of people doing an awful lot of very responsible tasks which also require lots of skills and training but they are being paid shit money. Care work is another prime example.

Are you sure your sister isn’t a kitchen assistant rather than the school cook? There is a difference in grade. Your sister’s post sounds more like a school kitchen assistant? All schools kitchen staff require basic qualifications like manual handling, NVQs. They’re not especially hard. Although maybe primary and secondary differ (I’m admin and have worked in both but see more of his primary school kitchens are run than I did at secondary which obviously had a lot more staff)

dont get me wrong, school kitchen staff work hard but for a lot of the time there is no contact with children and they’re just doing their thing in the kitchen all morning.

Choopi · 11/10/2022 00:03

People have no idea of the reality. Most TAs in my primary school are now 1:1 supporting children whose needs are so severe that they are a danger to themselves and others if left alone. There is little job satisfaction in chasing round after a non-verbal 5 year old who doesn't want to engage with anything.

I dont understand the UK schooling system at all. What is the thinking behind having non verbal, incontinent children, that are a danger to everyone including themselves in mainstream classrooms? Who is benefitting from this? Do children with this level of SN really do better in this kind of setting than in a specialised SN school? How does this impact the other children in the classroom, do they benefit by being in danger of harm whilst trying to learn?

If there is no benefit to anyone then why is this thread about needing more TAs rather than needing more specialist SN schools so everyone can learn as is best for them?

My mind is blown reading what goes on in UK classrooms in this thread.

Karrots · 11/10/2022 00:08

People who understand the issues are calling for specialist schools/better provision. That will be a policy decision/change requiring capital investment as well as ongoing funding. This is just about pay for TAs as right now they are the only solution to this problem.

Choopi · 11/10/2022 00:33

Karrots · 11/10/2022 00:08

People who understand the issues are calling for specialist schools/better provision. That will be a policy decision/change requiring capital investment as well as ongoing funding. This is just about pay for TAs as right now they are the only solution to this problem.

I suppose I'm just baffled that people have let it get to this point really. When the first children who clearly weren't a good fit for mainstream school rocked up why was their not outrage at the lack of adequate schooling? This must be going on years surely, it seems outrageous that in 2022 in a supposedly well off country the best children can hope for is a few TAs to plug the gaping holes in a clearly sinking ship.

Are teachers not in unions? TAs not in unions? Why isn't there strike action?

echt · 11/10/2022 01:40

Teachers can only strike about their pay and conditions.

EYProvider · 11/10/2022 02:17

cantkeepawayforever · 10/10/2022 23:13

Agencies exist to provide supply teachers. Post Covid, there seems to be very little use of agencies.

In the main, most of the old supply teachers had to get employment elsewhere during the pandemic. Now schools can’t afford agency fees and use TAs to cover teachers and nobody to cover TAs. Even schools that had supply budgets spent them very quickly at the start of each year with Covid absences so high, and had to use internal cover from then on.

This just isn’t true. Well, it might be the case in places that are outside towns and cities, but definitely not in London. In London, schools depend on agency staff because so many teachers work for agencies, especially teachers from Australia, New Zealand, South Africa, Canada - any teachers passing through for a few years basically, which must be in excess of 50% of the London workforce.

The teachers don’t want permanent jobs. They want agency work where they have no planning or marking responsibilities - they just turn up (if they feel like working that day) and babysit. The agencies don’t want to place permanent teachers either, not when they can make £140 per day per booking (the cost to the school is £240, the teacher is paid £100).

The crisis in teaching will never be resolved until someone sorts out the stranglehold the agencies have on the education system. But the schools are so dependent on agency staff, the education system would collapse if the government tried to intervene. Much like the NHS. The only winners are the agencies, which are all run by ex-teachers.

Badnewsoracle · 11/10/2022 05:26

outtheshowernow · 09/10/2022 15:11

They won't get 12 weeks paid holiday a year in a supermarket

They don't get 12 weeks paid holidays in a school. They get pro-rata pay spread over 12 months. Not the same thing. And they'll be paid more in a supermarket and have shift flexibility.

AliceinSlumberland · 11/10/2022 05:39

I also don’t think it’s pointed out anywhere enough in this thread that because TAs aren’t paid for their holiday, that their salary comes out at about 12k a year. That’s the problem.

HappyHappyHermit · 11/10/2022 06:20

12k a year if you can get a full time contract, often the best you will get is around 15 hours and that will be spread all across the week. Also somw but not all schools often change timings termly so it can be quite difficult to plan around.

conkercollector · 11/10/2022 06:42

dont understand the UK schooling system at all. What is the thinking behind having non verbal, incontinent children, that are a danger to everyone including themselves in mainstream classrooms? Who is benefitting from this? Do children with this level of SN really do better in this kind of setting than in a specialised SN school? How does this impact the other children in the classroom, do they benefit by being in danger of harm whilst trying to learn?

I think the initial idea of "inclusion" was based around the idea of including those with mild learning needs, visual difficulties, physical disabilities to be taught in mainstream more often. There used to be a high level of separation. I don't think it was ever the intention that children with very high level needs would be sent to mainstream. There are many reasons why these children end up in mainstream. Sometimes parents want to try it out and see, sometimes the needs weren't picked up early enough at pre-school, or children weren't sent to pre-school, sometimes there are issues around not wanting their DC to be labelled. There are a few parents who don't seem to care so long as the kids are out of their hair during the day.

Yes, they can be highly disruptive. We have some who won't stay in their classroom and run into every class in the school, screaming. Once they are in school it is nigh-on impossible to remove them as allowances have to be made for children with SEND. Even if oarents realise they want a specialist setting, there are few places available and the process of getting an EHCP can take years. Our most disruptive pupil has been on school over a year and has had no visit from any professional because we can't get one in. There are hardly any EPs, SALTs etc because of budget cuts and waiting lists post-covid. The burden is overwhelmingly higher in the lower years because of lack of early diagnosis and because parents often realise by upper primary that they don't want their DC in a mainstream secondary.

Inclusion can work. When I first started teaching 20 years ago, there was a vastly better support system. Specialist teachers would come in at least once per half term and help teachers plan for each child with different needs. They would provide resources etc. Most of these specialist staff no longer exist due to budget cuts.

The worst thing for inclusion was the introduction by the DfE of the buzz phrase "Quality first teaching". This loosely translates as "We will be cutting funding for SEND and saying that untrained mainstream teachers should be able to cope fine with all needs so long as they are good teachers. If they can't cope, we will blame them and say they aren't good enough".

liveforsummer · 11/10/2022 06:47

Choopi · 11/10/2022 00:03

People have no idea of the reality. Most TAs in my primary school are now 1:1 supporting children whose needs are so severe that they are a danger to themselves and others if left alone. There is little job satisfaction in chasing round after a non-verbal 5 year old who doesn't want to engage with anything.

I dont understand the UK schooling system at all. What is the thinking behind having non verbal, incontinent children, that are a danger to everyone including themselves in mainstream classrooms? Who is benefitting from this? Do children with this level of SN really do better in this kind of setting than in a specialised SN school? How does this impact the other children in the classroom, do they benefit by being in danger of harm whilst trying to learn?

If there is no benefit to anyone then why is this thread about needing more TAs rather than needing more specialist SN schools so everyone can learn as is best for them?

My mind is blown reading what goes on in UK classrooms in this thread.

It's true that spaces in special schools are limited and we definitely need more provision however we currently have 4 dc in that category in our class and not one of the parents will consider an application for a different school. However we explain it they just want their dc not to be 'different' and 'managing' in main stream school is the main way they can feel that's the case

Whinge · 11/10/2022 06:57

It's true that spaces in special schools are limited and we definitely need more provision however we currently have 4 dc in that category in our class and not one of the parents will consider an application for a different school. However we explain it they just want their dc not to be 'different' and 'managing' in main stream school is the main way they can feel that's the case

We have a similar experience in our school. Our setting isn't working but parents won't consider other options.

If you listen to the parents the child loves the staff and has so many friends, they've made so much progress and it's fantastic that our school is so inclusive.

If you listen to the staff they're on their knees trying to cater for a child who doesn't access any of the curriculum, doesn't engage with their peers or staff and would benefit so much for a more specialised provision.

Anotherautumn · 11/10/2022 07:11

I think a long time ago it was decided that the way to support children with a statement (as it was then) was with a TA.

I don’t think that’s actually the case, tbh.

Dinoteeth · 11/10/2022 07:25

@Whinge that really is ridiculous that parents can insist on 'inclusion' when really the child is unable to access the curriculum. Maybe the parents should be asked to come in for a day a term so they can really see what goes on in the class.

That must be reducing other kids chances of getting a decent education.

Postapocalypticcowgirl · 11/10/2022 07:29

Choopi · 11/10/2022 00:33

I suppose I'm just baffled that people have let it get to this point really. When the first children who clearly weren't a good fit for mainstream school rocked up why was their not outrage at the lack of adequate schooling? This must be going on years surely, it seems outrageous that in 2022 in a supposedly well off country the best children can hope for is a few TAs to plug the gaping holes in a clearly sinking ship.

Are teachers not in unions? TAs not in unions? Why isn't there strike action?

Because it's not quite as straightforward as that. Before the current ideology of inclusion, many children who could have accessed mainstream education were barred from it and limited to going to special schools only. As a teacher, I wouldn't want a return to that. I think the majority of children can be educated alongside their peers given the right support.

Some do definitely need a specialist setting, and part of the problem is that children have to travel a long way to access this as many special schools are no longer open. Reopening them would take a lot of time and money.

If that amount of money was spent supporting children in mainstream then I think a lot more children would thrive in mainstream education.

It's not as simple as every child who needs a TA should be in a special school.

Abraxan · 11/10/2022 07:36

Re how much senior staff at schools earn.
In maintained, and some other, schools you can rid out fairly easily. It has to be published on their website.

None of our local maintained primary schools have anyone listed. No where near!

Teaching assistants quitting schools for supermarkets because of 'joke wages'
chocolateisavegetable · 11/10/2022 07:37

To add insult to injury, in the last school I worked in we had annual contracts. Some time in June / July, you would be approached by the Head to tell you if you were wanted back in September 🙄

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