Child with additional support needs - what is a reasonable level of punishment/discipline in school?

[chubbachub]

Ds is 5.
We are awaiting a neurodevelopmental assessment. School and GP on board.
School want to put something in place so that boundaries are the same at home and school and we are meeting soon to discuss a reasonable "punishment" that both we and the school can use when ds behaviour is aggressive and violent.
This is usually towards other children and/or teacher as well as us at home, and there seems to be no specific trigger.

Any suggestions on things that work for children like this?

Shouting/warnings/taking things away doesn't work and neither do a stickers/traffic light systems/reward charts. He doesn't have any screen time other than tv but removing this doesn't work either.

There is a bigger picture here and a lot of other involvement from school so far but this specific question is basically asking what is a reasonable "punishment" or level of boundary setting for a child like this?
He can never explain his actions and just says he is angry. He is always very sorry. He acts without thinking and can't be reasoned with. We (and the school) teach and practice lots of breathing and calming techniques. But sometimes this doesn't work and others around my son are in danger. How can we show him this is unacceptable?
Time out also doesn't work. He runs off and ends up having nightmares every single night he has been given time out at school so it appears to cause more trauma and makes behaviour worse. He wets himself when put in time out.

At home we generally do time in rather than time out. So an incident may happen. We separate ds from whatever has happened but don't leave him alone. We take a few minutes to calm down using the strategies mentioned and then once calm discuss what happened and why, discuss emotion that caused it and again practice what we should do when we feel this emotion next time. He then will apologise and make it up to whoever he has hurt.

But the school say there is a point where others aren't safe and they want something stricter.

The reason for the neurodevelopmental assessment is suspected ADHD/PDA.

Hope someone can give me some ideas because I'm all out and feeling a bit lost.

Obviously it depends on the needs of your child and their cognitive skills for punishment etc
Really the school need yo be putting in measures to make sure all children are safe guarded have they.applied for an EHCP for example does your child have a 1:1?

School shouldn’t be thinking in terms of punishment. They should be trying to identify his triggers and come up with strategies to help him stay regulated and to bring down his arousal levels when he’s in the danger zone.
There is absolutely no point in punishing him. He’s not doing it on purpose.

Time in, social stories, gently directing him to an apology, but no punishments. He's no control of his actions at that point.

It sounds as if he is losing control rather than doing this on purpose. In which case a punishment will either have no impact or will make it worse if it increases his anxiety.

Your approach sounds as if it works well at home. At school it really is about the environment, so space for him to calm down and regulate himself - I know this is really tricky for schools but I think they need to focus on funding etc so they can support him appropriately. Hang on will link to a Fab book in the next post

This book is really good - talks about supporting your child to self regulate www.amazon.co.uk/Help-Your-Child-Deal-Stress-ebook/dp/B016IOF84O/ref=mp_s_a_1_3?adgrpid=111508338140&gclid=Cj0KCQjw-fmZBhDtARIsAH6H8qjTYSzsXzxbtexKL6LmiIaVfvMpi99NeY007m3q3jDmOiXRy5dJfNYaAmqaEALw_wcB&hvadid=470623665817&hvdev=m&hvlocphy=9046451&hvnetw=g&hvqmt=b&hvrand=5573221458502909141&hvtargid=kwd-311375690120&hydadcr=21641_1763694&keywords=self+reg+shanker&qid=1665085913&qu=eyJxc2MiOiIwLjk5IiwicXNhIjoiMC44MSIsInFzcCI6IjAuMDAifQ%3D%3D&sr=8-3

north American focused but still relevant. He has done a lot of work with schools. Really hard to introduce this stuff in U.K. schools at the moment but I work with people with severe behavioural regulation problems and it really is all about giving people the tools to regulate themselves.

He may need some help recognising emotions as well?

My son is waiting for an assessment for adhd and asd, he had a child physiologist in which did a report. He is 6 and can have a meltdown, he's tried getting out of the school, throwing chairs. He does get time away from the classroom when he feels overwhelmed, to burn off some energy. He does have a safe place where he can go. He also like his teddies which give him comfort for him. I'd suggest the school look at the triggers and try and put preventive measures in place. They have an reward system where my son is given 3 tasks to complete at his work station he is aloud ten minutes with lego. This gives him a focus to work towards and his tasks aren't too long.

ASN teacher here with extensive experience in autism which affects children severely and PDA. I’m horrified by the word “punishment” being used. Lashing out at adults and other children is not being naughty it’s not pre-mediated it is in response to high anxiety and neigh over-stimulated. In my class we would never “punish” a child.

For a PDA profile he will be anxious all the time and will not be able to cope with the routine demands of life, this could be something as simple as being asked if he wants a drink (I’ve had the drink thrown at me and been attacked before). It’s not his fault at all he cannot control it.

He needs understanding and a behaviour plan which recognises his triggers and when he starts to escalate there’s a system to take him to a safe place where he can de-escalate. Rewards/sticker charts will not work. Our little boy would actually ask to go outside.

I'm going to guess (and hope) that it's not a punishment as such that the school is after, but consequences that they want him to experience. That doing X will lead to a Y that he'd rather not have.
I can see why time out is something you want to avoid at home, but realistically time out for him in school provides a much needed calm and safe environment for his classmates. And they're important too.

Your DS reminds me very much of a child I taught (in a special school) who used to erupt, hurt us a lot, but who when it was over, simply didn't know what had happened. It was actually distressing for him. He looked totally bewildered once he was calm. And horrified at the damage (twice TAs had to go to A&E and were off after injuries)

But we had the staffing and the resources to mange him, to take him to a safe room, wrap him in a duvet to both swaddle him and protect ourselves while hugging him, and give the rest of the class time to recover.

Without knowing what staffing and practical resources your DS's class teacher has, it's hard to advise. But it does actually seem that timeout has an effect on him. It's more a case of how the time out is managed that's important.

There will be a trigger. A functional behavioural analysis will highlight what it is. Punishment is never the way forward with any child, SEN or not.

If this might be PDA your best course of action will be to join the very skilled parent groups on Facebook.

PDA Is a misunderstood and often not diagnosed type of autism and it needs handling carefully and differently to avoid damage.

They are a friendly informative group. Lots of parents with PDA and their perspective is useful too.

It sounds as though you are parenting well, it's just school trying to cope. I think I'd be saying to the school less sanctions, certainly never punishments.

If it is PDA, this presentation of autism doesn't usually fit into mainstream due to the highest levels of anxiety.

He'll probably need specialist with similar children, you can get schools that offer full curriculum and opportunities. Fully supported, it's a fight though but it is possible.

This was our final course of action.

Oh my goodness thank you all so much.

I feel so justified now in my approach and disagreement with the use of "punishment" for my son.

We dont have a echp? I dont know what that is.
The school have an Ed psych but won't be seen until after Easter.
They want the SENCO to observe him.

He is a danger to himself and others. Today he bit someone and put string round his neck.

I am so thankful others can see that punishments won't work for a child like this.
Im going to look at the facebook resource mentioned as well as the book. I just want to help my son.

They say they are a nurture school and have safe spaces in each classroom with beanbags and sensory toys etc and the children can use these if angry/sad.
Ds has used it a few times if he has hurt someone/himself in class.
Playground is a different story.

Time out was given at play time and lunchtime on the same day meaning my son had no exercise that day. The time out given was to stand against the wall in front of his peers for the whole play/lunchtime. It was due to this where I demanded a meeting and highlighted his needs and they have got on board with me since.

So I think when they say punishment, they mean punishment sadly

I so value your input here.

This is exactly what my son is like, nursery described him as having uncontrollable
impulses and usually things are his way or no way.

Can you recommend any approaches we can use to identify triggers? There doesn't seem to be any and we have kept a daily home-school diary for weeks now. He just lashes out at any time to any body.

I think consequences or management of the situation is what they are looking for. If he is hurting others they need to look at how they can safeguard others. Ask yourself whether this school has the staff and environment that will work for him. Time in will not work for the school. They need to keep staff and other children safe. They will need to have a time out space for him until he is calm. What might work at home will probably not work in a school environment.

www.amazon.co.uk/Red-Beast-Children-Spectrum-Feelings/dp/1839972750/ref=asc_df_1839972750/?tag=googshopuk-21&linkCode=df0&hvadid=570334609561&hvpos=&hvnetw=g&hvrand=16001886343827170300&hvpone=&hvptwo=&hvqmt=&hvdev=c&hvdvcmdl=&hvlocint=&hvlocphy=9045283&hvtargid=pla-1644137789516&psc=1&th=1&psc=1

Another parent recommended The Red Beast to me when my child was about 5. This was pre diagnosis for us. It’s the perspective of one neurodiverse person and expressed in their individual way.

I found it very helpful. I’d suggest you buy two copies and give one to the school. It could be a discussion starter.

I see from Google there’s also a YouTube video about it - sorry I can’t link.

Lots of what you say is true of my child. No reward or punishment will influence his behaviour. Safety of all concerned is very important. Punishment after an event does not influence his brain’s ability to perform self regulation before reacting to a given stimulus prior to another event. At age 5 an alert adult nearby at all times made it possible to avoid risky situations and quickly intervene if necessary for everyone’s safety.

Weighted blankets, decompression time, a sensory tent/safe space to retreat to/hide in, headphones to listen to stories/music (as a way of staying calm not as a reward) fidget toys, soft toys and a reduced timetable all helped at various times.

Good luck.

I would try very hard to find your son a place in a specialist school. With the best will in the world, mainstream school will struggle to safely manage his behaviour. A specialist school will work with you and your son to identify his triggers and help him learn how to manage his outbursts. Good luck.

My ds was like this. By yr 1 he had a 1:1 which meant someone could have watch over him and intervene before a meltdown. It was funded by an EHCP. Longer term zones of regulation and social skills courses have helped. He is now in Yr6 and thriving.

Identifying triggers sounds logical but you might be doing well to identify half or less. If your child is like mine we simply can’t see into their brain or have a crystal ball. Something will be unimportant one day and cause a two hour meltdown the next.

Do what you can but don’t work yourself to bits trying to make your child or yourself ‘conform to a norm’ . Dealing with the reality of the situation will be hard enough, trying to encourage or coerce someone to ‘act normal’ (e.g. having a finite list of identifiable and predictable ‘triggers’) when it’s impossible for them will only result in pain all round.

I’m not brilliant at it but I really try to give as much sincere praise as I can. My child is very down on himself. I don’t want him to hear nothing but ‘No, no, no, stop, don’t, bad, listen, careful ‘ from morning till night.

I hope you have some good support for yourself.

Thank you.

Yes I feel the same. We are massive on praise at home with him and it really helps him. He's such a good kid.

I think ds would benefit from 1-1, I will ask about this at next weeks meeting. Thanks

Thank you. Ive considered this may need to be something we look at but not sure if it's possible when he's not diagnosed with anything yet?

This

I'll look at this book, thanks.

We have all of the sensory things you've mentioned at home, including a tent with soft lighting, fidget toys and soft things (and some in school). Haven't tried headphones so I will try this.

Also have a weighted blanket but his sleep is still terrible. Falls asleep fine but very restless, falls out of bed, nightmares, wakes at 3am ready for the day.

The time out given was to stand against the wall in front of his peers for the whole play/lunchtime

Ugh. That's terrible. I'm so sorry. I assumed that the time out would be away from the classroom. The school clearly have no idea how to handle children like your son. And yes, in all fairness they will not have the staffing and resources to give him what he needs.

It's vital that he's seen and assessed as soon as possible. For his sake and the other children's, given what you've said about the injured he's inflicted on some of them. Mercifully the child I compared him to, only injured me and my team, and not his classmates. He was far brighter than the other children in my class, but or special school was the only place resourced well enough to be able to manage him, and with the expertise to handle him empathetically and sensitively. And yes, he was such a lovely and caring boy when he was calm and together.

I feel for you, and really hope that he can get the assessment and the education he needs.