Child with additional support needs - what is a reasonable level of punishment/discipline in school?

[chubbachub]

Ds is 5.
We are awaiting a neurodevelopmental assessment. School and GP on board.
School want to put something in place so that boundaries are the same at home and school and we are meeting soon to discuss a reasonable "punishment" that both we and the school can use when ds behaviour is aggressive and violent.
This is usually towards other children and/or teacher as well as us at home, and there seems to be no specific trigger.

Any suggestions on things that work for children like this?

Shouting/warnings/taking things away doesn't work and neither do a stickers/traffic light systems/reward charts. He doesn't have any screen time other than tv but removing this doesn't work either.

There is a bigger picture here and a lot of other involvement from school so far but this specific question is basically asking what is a reasonable "punishment" or level of boundary setting for a child like this?
He can never explain his actions and just says he is angry. He is always very sorry. He acts without thinking and can't be reasoned with. We (and the school) teach and practice lots of breathing and calming techniques. But sometimes this doesn't work and others around my son are in danger. How can we show him this is unacceptable?
Time out also doesn't work. He runs off and ends up having nightmares every single night he has been given time out at school so it appears to cause more trauma and makes behaviour worse. He wets himself when put in time out.

At home we generally do time in rather than time out. So an incident may happen. We separate ds from whatever has happened but don't leave him alone. We take a few minutes to calm down using the strategies mentioned and then once calm discuss what happened and why, discuss emotion that caused it and again practice what we should do when we feel this emotion next time. He then will apologise and make it up to whoever he has hurt.

But the school say there is a point where others aren't safe and they want something stricter.

The reason for the neurodevelopmental assessment is suspected ADHD/PDA.

Hope someone can give me some ideas because I'm all out and feeling a bit lost.

I would be going absolutely batshit about that. A child with suspected / likely ASD and PDA should not have movement restricted as punishment for behaviour they can't help. PDA outbursts or meltdowns should be considered as similar to panic attacks. Punishing them is totally pointless and will only adversely affect the child's self-esteem and cause a vicious circle of punishment - self-loathing - outburst.

I would ask for an urgent meeting with the SENCO. No you can't wait until Easter(!) for an assessment - it's not even Christmas yet. I would say to them

• my child is having anxiety fuelled outbursts at school and I want to know what you are doing to meet his needs
• if you can't meet his needs, he needs a different school
• if you're not sure if you can meet his needs, you need to apply urgently for an EHCP so that you can put into place the 1:1 or 2:1 support that will facilitate you meeting his needs
• at the moment you are failing him, because he can't learn effectively when he is constantly dysregulated, and you are failing his classmates who are having their education disrupted and are at risk from his outbursts, and none of the class, my child included, can wait for them to take their own sweet time until Easter

I would also say, as politely as it is possible to say it, that if they are not willing to try to meet his needs and are going to try to punish the autism out of him, then you would consider that a safeguarding and disability inclusion issue which you would need to raise with the governors and / or Ofsted.

It is not lawful to punish a child for having SEN. "The school should
take into account any underlying causes for the pupil’s disruptive behaviour, such as unmet educational needs, and should consider the need for a multi-agency assessment if necessary. Schools should consider whether a pupil’s SEND has contributed to the misbehaviour and if so, whether it is appropriate and lawful to sanction the pupil. In considering this, schools should refer to the Equality Act 2010 and schools guidance to ascertain whether the pupil understood the rule or instruction and whether the pupil was unable to act differently at this time as a result of their SEND." From this helpful page: childlawadvice.org.uk/information-pages/discipline-within-school/

I would also want the school to explain to me in words of one syllable how it is that they think standing him against a wall throughout break at the age of FIVE when he is on the ASD / PDA pathway is fathomably in accordance with the DfE guidance.

Nurture school my arse.

Incidentally, I had some really good support for my child's EHCP application from Sunshine Support. They have experience with PDA. If you want to preserve a relationship with the school, I would recommend getting them involved so that you are at arm's length from the impolite bits of what you need to say.

After this update - about being made to stand in front of the wall - I’d take him out and tell them he isn’t going back until enough support is place to meet his needs.

Call SENDIASS for advice (free service, they will come to meetings with you). Call education welfare yourself, before school can start threatening you with them, and explain that you want him in school but that he isn’t being kept safe there - and other pupils aren’t safe either if he is hurting them - and ask them for advice.

Put in EHCP application yourself now, you can find a template letter online to request a needs assessment from your local council. Ignore school if they tell you that he won’t get one.

This

All behaviour is communication. What's he telling them with his behaviour? Something he needs, or something he needs to get away from or has to much of

Be curious..... not furious

Poor little boy. He sounds like he is between anxious and terrified in school. Behaviour is communication at that age. He's telling you he's frightened and cannot cope with the demands. If it's a school that insists on shaming punishment for SEN 5 year olds I would move him as soon as possible.

We had similar with our children. One of them was simply terrified due to bullying and on a knife edge, this was sorted by moving schools.
The other had major school anxiety and we developed a support system with school where interventions, rather than punishments, were pre planned for different behaviour. Until interrupted by Covid this worked well.

i.e. if coping well, reinforce and don't add demands.
If fidgety/uncomfortable, reduce demands, check triggers, have a safe adult or calming/dead cert activity.
If really pushing back - he is not coping, remove from situation to do something regulating (fresh air, exercise, a "helping job") with a safe adult until he can go back to class.
If physically aggressive - remove to safe known place with a known adult or get parents to collect. But hopefully it doesn't get to this too often.

There will be triggers and warning signs but they might be overlooked or minimised. Changes of people, routine or environment. Being told off for not doing something he couldn't manage or help. Teacher repeatedly insisting rather than "I wonder if you would prefer your usual chair/to read instead/to sit with your friend".

This is much easier with a 1:1 but good primary schools can be resourceful with how they use their staff and space.

Is there a ASD out reach school in your county,? School need urgent help from experienced people.

I'd advise you to read up on illegal exclusion as I have seen so many PDA profile kids get excluded as mainstream and pda rarely ends well.

Time out was given at play time and lunchtime on the same day meaning my son had no exercise that day. The time out given was to stand against the wall in front of his peers for the whole play/lunchtime.

This is AWFUL and shouldn’t be happening to why child, especially not one with SN.

Apply for an EHCP now, don’t wait for school assessments. It’s a legal document that will mean that the school has to follow what is set out. So, if it states that if he hurts someone, he needs time to calm down in a safe space then the school must follow this and can’t impose their own punishments.

Personally, I’d remove him and home educate for a bit as he’s only young. 5 is too young for many NT children to be in that environment. Then look for a specialist place/flexi schooling when he’s a bit older.
You sound amazing with him and it sounds like things are working well at home. Unfortunately the stresses on him from a poor school environment can undo all your hard work at home and it can take years to get back in the position you are in now with him.

Key thing is he needs an adult to help him regulate his emotions, you can't just tell a 5 year old "go and play with that bean bag and calm down". And that adult can't be the person who told him off or made him stand by the wall.

@TheodoreMortlock has excellent advice, and much of their post needs to be used word for word for maximum effectiveness. The points are reasonable, rational, accept the effect that his behaviour has on others, and use professional, calm, but determined language to ask focused and direct questions.

Exactly. A bean bag corner is okay for a sad or over tired child to take themselves to. But absolutely useless for OP's child. It's pretty tokenistic.

And yes (again there needs to be the staffing resources for this) the adult who 'caused' or was involved in the problem that caused the loss of control needs to immediately withdraw and have other adults take over to help regulate the child. It was the most important first step on how we handled the high drama, and frankly dangerous moments. The person helping to bring the boy down needs to be calm and seen as 'safe' by him.

You can use the CRISIS acronym to look for possible triggers

Communication

did the child understand? Has the child misunderstood?

Routines

has there been a change in routine? Has the child been supported to know the routine?

Interaction

has there been a social misunderstanding? Does the child understand what is expected of them?

Sensory issues

sensory Issues – is there an increase / change in sensory stimuli?

Imagination

is the child being expected to use their imagination or be creative?

Subjectivity

are you assuming the child is purposely being challenging and behaving accordingly?

(taken from the Autism Wales site - there are other variations but this one I think is good)

But to be honest, from what you've described about the school's approach, it may be that he is in a state of constant high alert and therefore in a state of constant fight / flight / freeze.

Thanks @saraclara!

I have two DS with SEN. My younger son can have meltdowns and struggles to control his actions. We went for an ehcp while he was in nursery but he was non verbal and his learning needs were really evident. He is in a special school and their response to all the children's behaviour is so understanding and flexible.

My older son is in a mainstream school and this works for him but knew it would be a disaster with younger son.

Thank you thank you thank you all. 🙏

It may sound silly but i have just cried reading the last few posts because I feel more heard and understood and I've gained more insight and resources from this thread than I have from my sons school.

I am trying to sleep now after settling him from a nightmare but tomorrow I'm going through every one of these posts and making notes and going into the school next week armed and ready. I know that I am my son's biggest advocate and I have to get this right for him.

Thank you all so much.

What do they mean by nurture school? Their approach sounds anything but.

Agree with pp that tgey need to stop him getting to that point. That requires attention and intervention before he blows up. Mine are very different but both struggled with unstructured time, when they were younger.

Whatever you would prefer, school has a duty of care to all students, and if your child is aggressive towards other children, especially without warning, school must act to safeguard the other children. What do you think would happen if your child really hurt another child? Maybe your child would be better catered for in a special school. My youngest son was in a class with a child who used to bite, kick, push and attack other children with no warning and no apparent reason. Every week 2 or 3 children got bitten or kicked. Some children felt afraid to go to school after being bitten. 2 parents removed their children after were attacked. One child was pushed into a corner of a table and had a huge bruise. The aggressive child used to be put in a different part of room, book corner with T/A. Eventually the child did get EHSP and following year went to a special school.

A boy at ds primary school was like this & his time out was someone, often the caretaker taking him outside to kick a ball against a wall until he calmed down, like your ds he had thrown chairs & tables, kicking the ball helped him calm down & refocus.

How's it going now @chubbachub?