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Original poster

4 year old unable to say sorry and plays victim when in the wrong

35 replies

Nispero · 02/10/2022 21:09

My son is 4 years old and is in reception. He is generally a well behaved kid and kind to children and adults. Normally doesn't tend to be purposefully naughty, but of course sometimes does things which hurt someone that he didn't mean to do. In situations like this, instead of apologising, he goes into almost panic and plays the victim. E.g. if on the playground he accidentally throws sand in a child's face and that child is hurt, he doesn't say sorry or try to remedy the situation, instead starts crying and says things like he didn't want to come to the playground in the first place, as if it wasn't his fault at all, it is my fault for bringing him to the playground. He also likes to blame others or objects when something happens, e.g. it is the bicycles' fault he fell. I know he is very young still but I feel a larger problem is developing here and he could grow up to be one of those people who can never admit fault and always blame others. He is a kind hearted child and I would really like to help him develop in this area but don't know how. Any advice? Thank you!

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ItsNotReallyChaos · 02/10/2022 21:15

I'm going to lurk here as I have similar issues with DD (5).

Her defense is that if she didn't mean to do the wrong thing then 'it doesn't matter'. Or anytime I pick her up on poor behaviour she'll say 'You don't like me anymore'.

Jazzydrops · 02/10/2022 21:21

following with interest as I have a child like this.

Original poster
Nispero · 02/10/2022 21:25

@ItsNotReallyChaos Yes, I think something similar at play here, if he didn't mean it then it doesn't matter. I feel for him as it is a terrible feeling to accidentally hurt someone but would really like him to understand how to handle these situations.

OP posts:

Interested in this thread?

Then you might like threads about these subjects:

4 year olds Behaviour & development Families Primary education
howaboutchocolate · 02/10/2022 21:32

Do you always say sorry to him if you accidentally do something to him, even if it's something little? Or do you say oops I didn't mean that, or similar. They pick up what we say and do a lot.

Gemstar2 · 02/10/2022 21:32

Sorry, no direct advice, but just a suggestion to check out Dr Becky - Good Inside. She’s a child psychologist who does paid-for online parenting workshops, (which I am coveting but haven’t done so can’t comment on!) but she also gives a lot of free advice on Instagram for things like wording to use to help children apologise. Can’t harm to have a read of the free stuff and see if there are any useful phrases that might work in these situations?

TwigTheWonderKid · 02/10/2022 21:32

At this age children are not great at empathy but do feel shame, which is an uncomfortable feeling and so I can see why they try to avoid it. So instead of focussing on what they have done, can you acknowledge it was an accident and try and focus on how the victim might be feeling? Eg "When the sand went in that boy's eyes it made them sore. That's why we need to be careful when we play with sand. I am know it was an accident and I know you are a kind boy so let's check that he is ok and tell him we're sorry he got hurt."

parietal · 02/10/2022 21:39

he has got negative feeling when another child is hurt - that is the start of empathy. now he needs to learn to convert that into a response that helps the other child instead of blaming the world.

read story books that model empathy and practice with toys. Ask him 'what can you do to make it better?'

Original poster
Nispero · 02/10/2022 21:39

howaboutchocolate · 02/10/2022 21:32

Do you always say sorry to him if you accidentally do something to him, even if it's something little? Or do you say oops I didn't mean that, or similar. They pick up what we say and do a lot.

Yes, we both do and we also apologise to each other with partner and he sees and hears this. We have specifically talked about this with him, that even though we have known and loved each other for a very long time, there are still occasions we hurt each other and we apologise afterwards to show we didn't want to hurt and wish we hadn't.

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Goldbar · 02/10/2022 21:39

How do you react when he hurts others? Ime when children are afraid to admit that they're in the wrong, it's often because the adults around them react in an excessively negative manner to the behaviour in question so the child is frightened to admit it. You see this with children who break things and then hide them and won't admit to having done it. He needs to know that accidents happen, we should try to be careful but sometimes we might hurt people and it's not the end of the world but apologising often makes the people we hurt feel better.

Original poster
Nispero · 02/10/2022 21:40

@Gemstar2 Thank you, will check her out.

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Original poster
Nispero · 02/10/2022 21:43

@TwigTheWonderKid We do try this approach but he tends to get so distraught in these situations that reasoning doesn't work at all. But maybe we are not firm enough following through with it.

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Original poster
Nispero · 02/10/2022 21:45

parietal · 02/10/2022 21:39

he has got negative feeling when another child is hurt - that is the start of empathy. now he needs to learn to convert that into a response that helps the other child instead of blaming the world.

read story books that model empathy and practice with toys. Ask him 'what can you do to make it better?'

Thank you, I will try to think of it this way, that empathy is starting to develop. I'm just afraid his negative feeling is not because someone else is hurt but because his flow of play is being interrupted.

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Original poster
Nispero · 02/10/2022 21:47

Goldbar · 02/10/2022 21:39

How do you react when he hurts others? Ime when children are afraid to admit that they're in the wrong, it's often because the adults around them react in an excessively negative manner to the behaviour in question so the child is frightened to admit it. You see this with children who break things and then hide them and won't admit to having done it. He needs to know that accidents happen, we should try to be careful but sometimes we might hurt people and it's not the end of the world but apologising often makes the people we hurt feel better.

Thank you, there is definitely truth in this. The more we react the more he clams up. But his other parent is the coolest person on earth and does not escalate situations like this but regardless, son's behaviour is the same.

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Flyingagain · 02/10/2022 21:49

He is still so little I wouldn't worry about it too much if its an accident. Tell him off in a stern voice and maybe make him sit out fir a minute. Then remind him to be gentle and let him go back. If you start trying to control his emotions he could get resentful.

Surtsey · 02/10/2022 21:56

Is he terrified of being told off and getting into trouble? That might be why he is trying to blame anything and everything else for mishaps.

Imissmoominmama · 02/10/2022 21:57

When I worked in school, there were a lot of children like this.

If a child had hurt someone by accident, but was pretending it was the other child’s fault, I used to model it with another member of staff. One of us would pretend to stand on the other ones foot, and that person would pretend to be in pain. The the stander would look concerned, go and ask if the standee was ok, and we’d finish with a hug.

It got the message across and also took the heat out of the situation.

Original poster
Nispero · 02/10/2022 22:06

Surtsey · 02/10/2022 21:56

Is he terrified of being told off and getting into trouble? That might be why he is trying to blame anything and everything else for mishaps.

Yes, I think this is the case.

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Original poster
Nispero · 02/10/2022 22:13

Imissmoominmama · 02/10/2022 21:57

When I worked in school, there were a lot of children like this.

If a child had hurt someone by accident, but was pretending it was the other child’s fault, I used to model it with another member of staff. One of us would pretend to stand on the other ones foot, and that person would pretend to be in pain. The the stander would look concerned, go and ask if the standee was ok, and we’d finish with a hug.

It got the message across and also took the heat out of the situation.

Thank you for this, I am looking for good examples of modelling for him. He loves Thomas books and there are many stories where the engines cause problems and end up apologising and I often remark on this when we are reading it to say how great it is when they do and how it helps the other engine feel better...etc, but this seems to have zero effect so far.

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bigbeautifulmonster · 02/10/2022 22:17

Same kind of child here. 4yo. Gets upset when others are hurt it can't ring herself to apologise.

I think it's pretty normal.

JhsLs · 02/10/2022 22:22

I don’t have a 4 year old, but at the school I work in, we’ve altered the way we deal with behaviour by using relationship based strategies rather than a behaviourist approach, e.g. focus on underlying causes for behaviour rather than issuing sanctions. I am a strong believer that all behaviour is a form of communication. If you child is ‘playing the victim’ maybe they have a deep rooted fear of being in trouble and the consequences that could arise as a result.
We use the WIN model when discussing behaviour. It involves an awful lot of ‘thinking out loud’ but can be helpful for building emotional literacy, e.g I WONDER if you feel frustrated by… I IMAGINE it must be quite upsetting to…I NOTICED you got upset when…
It is emotion coaching that helps to recognise the child’s feelings, assists them with verbally labelling emotions and develops empathy.

Original poster
Nispero · 02/10/2022 22:27

JhsLs · 02/10/2022 22:22

I don’t have a 4 year old, but at the school I work in, we’ve altered the way we deal with behaviour by using relationship based strategies rather than a behaviourist approach, e.g. focus on underlying causes for behaviour rather than issuing sanctions. I am a strong believer that all behaviour is a form of communication. If you child is ‘playing the victim’ maybe they have a deep rooted fear of being in trouble and the consequences that could arise as a result.
We use the WIN model when discussing behaviour. It involves an awful lot of ‘thinking out loud’ but can be helpful for building emotional literacy, e.g I WONDER if you feel frustrated by… I IMAGINE it must be quite upsetting to…I NOTICED you got upset when…
It is emotion coaching that helps to recognise the child’s feelings, assists them with verbally labelling emotions and develops empathy.

Thank you, yes, I think you are right, he must have a fear but the reaction is so severe, there is no way to get through to him. We sometimes use the type of language you suggest but I am a bit wary of this approach because don't want to put words in his mouth or make assumptions which don't represent his thoughts and end up masking his true feelings. Does that not happen with the WIN model in your experience?

OP posts:
Original poster
Nispero · 02/10/2022 22:29

bigbeautifulmonster · 02/10/2022 22:17

Same kind of child here. 4yo. Gets upset when others are hurt it can't ring herself to apologise.

I think it's pretty normal.

Yes, so I actually wonder if this is normal at this age for his personality type, but also worry that this is an indication of the type of adult he is destined to become.

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MrsTerryPratchett · 02/10/2022 22:35

I wonder if he's just learned the lesson that if he becomes distraught, you will back down. It's become a feedback loop. You say you don't push it so if he gets more and more distressed, he gets to avoid. Pavlov's tantrum!

You could try just offering two choices. Either he can leave, or make right. He gets one crack and there is no convincing or arguing or messing around. You say, "shall we see if we can make Sam feel better" he starts to get upset, "OK let's go". It's the natural consequence. You can discuss it before and after, very matter of fact, "well we couldn't stay when Sam was so upset. What shall we do next time?"

It might break the loop.

When DD was that age we didn't force apologies. What we did was address HER emotions, "you feel bad Sam got hurt, what can we do to make him feel better". She would decide; apology, hug, offer a toy. Apology is the least work so she would normally choose that!

tickticksnooze · 02/10/2022 22:40

He's 4. It's developmental. Children are not miniature adults.

dandelionthistle · 02/10/2022 22:51

I agree about relationships rather than behaviour 'training'.

Disclaimer, neither of mine have really been like this (saw plenty of them when mine were 4 though and far fewer now the big one's 11, so it does look like a thing most just outgrow!). I think in addition to the WIN thing I'd also (when appropriate) actually do the behaviour you'd like your child to do, eg express concern about the hurt child, make sure they're OK, maybe even apologise yourself if it feels authentic. This is how I step in when my DC have been too small or shy or rabbit-in-headlights to thank someone when needed, for eg. I wonder if this would help role model the behaviour, show how much it's not a big deal, as well as being a positive thing for any injured parties etc. And perhaps it would also channel your own discomfort quite effectively - children always seem to sense when we're feeling uneasy, but theyre much less skilled at working out exactly why, and this can sometimes also contribute to social challenges I think.

The other thing worth noting is - children who are freaking out are in the lizard brain*, they can't listen and learn. So (reminder of the obvious, sorry!) there is no value in trying to explain or rationalise until he has properly calmed down.

In different ways I used to worry that my DC1 was demonstrating a lack of empathy, and I found that really upsetting because that had always been my priority as a parent, to be an empathetic parent and raise an empathetic child. With the benefit of hindsight, I was overreacting and I was mistaken. DC1 is thoughtful and kind, and I was stressing about perfectly normal signs of being... a child!

*I have forgotten the proper terminology for this as 9/10 I am using this concept with the 11yo! I mean when they're all flooded with cortisol...