Labour and conservative

[ChampagneCamping]

Anyone else stuck between anti women Labour and the greedy, non community minded conservatives? If only there were better quality options. The next general election will just bring a different set of issues I’m sure.

Labour are not anti-women. They call the trans issues complicated - keep on at your local councillors or whoever else you come across. It all gets reported back.

No. If you vote labour next time there is a very high change they will bring in PR which will lead to more moderate views represented in parliament.

If your anti-women point is to do with the trans shitshow, that's not down to Labour. The Conservatives are responsible for that.

Male bodied folk in women's single sex spaces? That happened under the Conservatives. Self ID? Conservative policy under Theresa May. It was championed by Caroline Nokes and Penny TWAW Mordaunt who is the current Leader of the Commons. Conservative MPs have reported women to the police and their employers for retweeting JKR. The Conservatives also have Britain's first trans MP, Jamie Wallis, who is "becoming" a woman.

No. If you vote labour next time there is a very high change they will bring in PR which will lead to more moderate views represented in parliament.

Starmer has explicitly said they won't do this: www.theguardian.com/politics/2022/sep/24/keir-starmer-defies-call-for-changes-to-first-past-the-post-voting-system

All the big labour donors now back PR and labour do not have much hope of holding power without it, especially with Scotland devolution. I think it will only be a matter of time.

This, a million times over.

The Tories have been in power for 12 years. They are responsible for where we are.

Labour are at least genuinely interested in women's rights (abortion, work, crime, violence AND gender issues) rather than just whipping up a frenzy whilst presiding over a persistent slide in women's lives.

Yes op.

It's a complicated issue that I can't explain myself but I've read around it and read some excellent posts on here.

As far as I'm awarepaper's were introduced by accident as policy and now there is a big row back?

Unfortunately Labour seems to champion minorities not the whole including minorities or any other issues.

Yes I'm torn .

I read that Starmer was ruling that out 🙁

What's pr?

I can't stand Raynor either.

They don't seem reasonable to me anymore.

I don't think it's a difficult choice. You either vote Conservative and have no public services left (which negatively affects women more than men) or you vote Labour and hold your nose on one issue.

As the pp said, the things that are happening now are due to Tory policy. They've been in power for 12 years.

PR = proportional representation.

What don't you like about Angela Raynor?!

There is a knowledgment on that issue though.
There is row back.

The problem organisation have been identified.

And it's a big, big issue.

Proportional Representation.

The Tories are not reasonable. If you have a stroke now, you wait too long for an ambulance and die as a result. One in eight people are currently on a hospital waiting list. Two million children are in poverty.

Please vote on sensible grounds, not because you don't like someone.

Nothing was done by accident. You've read some bollocks if that's what you think.

She's too extreme and nothing she has ever said resonates with me.

I just can't get into this snarling at anything a "Tory " says because they are a Tory!

We need to move beyond this type of politics.

I would like someone on the opposite side say " this is a good policy, it will help a b and x. However,what we would do is take this and tweak it so it also helps X y and h. We would do this by....".

I cannot bear this tribish born red politics.

Honestly I think the issue is that there’s now a massive gulf between the two parties. Tony Blair, for all his faults, understood where the national consensus is ( basically In the middle) and I don’t actually think that has really changed in terms of voter views despite the best efforts of social media. Current situation makes it harder for the swing voters to “swing”. I’m not convinced that the Tories wouldn’t win an election tomorrow. It’s all just really depressing. I hope that labour splits into two parties. They are too broad a church at the moment. It’s hopeless in terms of formulating and communicating policy.

I was struggling to vote labour but after this budget I don't think I have a choice. The economy will be in serious trouble in 2 years. 5 more years would be catastrophic.

I just gave three specific reasons why I think we need a change of government.

You are the one making judgements based on personal grounds rather than policy grounds so it ironic you want to talk about policy.

Can you even explain which policies Raynor has proposed that you think are 'too extreme'?

No one is being tribal, I am looking at the government's record and saying they have broken things, we need a change.

Labour would have to clearly indicate where they stand. They haven’t so far and since we’ve made some good ground recently I’d not want to see that reversed in any way.

I just think we need anything that isn't the bloody tories. And my parents were tory councillors for years and I love and respect them - i have no truck for 'all Tories are evil bastards' rhetoric.

But it's all gone way too far - their policies are just cruel and are terrible economically. They don't understand modern British business at all, they act as through we're a manufacturing economy when we're a knowledge economy; they think workers need fewer rights to be 'more productive' (this does not work); they're pushing millions into desperate poverty rather than ensuring jobs can pay for people to live which,,as well as being appalling for those people is an economic disaster.

That's all more important, I'm afraid, than one issue.

I think the fact two people can work full time and they still can't provide the basics for a family is a) due to deliberate policy choices made by the Tories since 2010 and b) a sign something desperately needs to change.

Labour are too immersed in identity politics for me to vote for them. Identity politics is divisive and causing harm in communities. We need to move away from everyone subdividing into “ communities” with opposing needs and wants, dividing people more.
Tories play ID too when it suits them but mostly do it in response to labour’s idiocracy imo.
I also hate the idea of PR. With PR wouldn’t ukip have quite a few seats? With fptp they get 1 seat or none.
Be careful what you wish for with changing the fptp system.
It generally ( not always) gives us a clear government mandate rather than a continuous coalition where parties trade policies after the election each time and no one gets what they want. Look at what the Lib Dems did with student fees in 2010. Not Only Totally gave up on abolishing them , tripled them!

@sashagabadon and the tories have been carrying out their manifesto exactly as set out at the last election?

I think it is pretty telling that Belarus and the UK are the only two countries in Europe still to use FPTP.

Fancy having to vote Labour to save the country from complete economic collapse.

How the wheel turns.

No one carries out their manifesto completely that is true. But the Lib Dems not only not abolishing student fees but tripling them was the most outrageous “not carrying out manifesto “ I’ve ever seen.
And they did that to join the coalition after the election.
My point is the trading that takes place in a coalition can result in these sort of perverse decisions.