Labour and conservative

[ChampagneCamping]

Anyone else stuck between anti women Labour and the greedy, non community minded conservatives? If only there were better quality options. The next general election will just bring a different set of issues I’m sure.

I just read on some thread Starmer has indicated he won’t go for PR

I’m sure Labour can take a win without it, in this climate.

So far from the conference the emphasis seems to be on green policies, I recall an article re Starmer learning from Aus Labor - maybe going for the same

List of 2019 pledges the tories have broken

We Will Keep Our Existing Energy Cap and Introduce New Measures to Lower Bills’

No One Should have to Sell their Home to Pay for Care’

We Will Build Northern Powerhouse Rail Between Leeds and Manchester’

We Will Proudly Maintain Our Commitment to Spend 0.7% of GNI on Development’

Building 40 New Hospitals Across the Country’

I agree PR is far from perfect but it does moderate the far right and far left.

The big advantage of PR is that it stops the endless swinging from one extreme to another. There has to be compromise because you nearly always end up with coalition governments, and that's actually a good thing.

With PR, every vote actually counts - even in the 'blue rosette/donkey' parts of the country.

And yes, it would see extremist parties represented in parliament. I see this as a good thing for the most part, because the extreme left and extreme right tend to fracture and fall apart the moment they get a sniff at representation. Their inherent incompetence leads to this. And ultimately if people want these parties, that's democracy. We don't have true representative democracy in the UK right now.

Yes OP I gave up my party membership because of the difficulties Labour have with explaining what a woman is. I did explain to the local Labour candidates who came knocking on my door, but I doubt the message is relayed to central party headquarters.

I am politically homeless, there is no one to vote for for the first time in my life.

I disagree that it’s good to see extremist parties in government. As they change the conversation. Look at how influential Nigel farage was with only one MP and it wasn’t even him! Now imagine him with 10 or 20 mp’s or more. And he could have got that under PR.
FPTP protects us from extremist parties. We’re lucky in the U.K. to be protected to a certain extent from extremists and FPTP helps with that.
we do occasionally get coalitions like in 2010 but rarely.
I think people that advocate for PR imagine it will benefit their favoured party but it could just as easily benefit extremist parties instead on all ends of the spectrum.

It's not complicated, it's simple - No-one can change sex, as said by Robert Winston on Question Time.

@sashagabadon I think if you look at other countries in Europe which do have PR, it's clear that your worst fears won't necessarily materialise.

Nigel Farage's influence didn't come from having one MP (who wasn't him) in parliament. It came from the support he got from the right wing media. And yes, they are a problem - the media in the UK are probably more polarised than they are anywhere else. These's no Dutch equivalent to the Mail and the Express, for instance - the nearest would be the Telegraaf, but they are very moderate politically by comparison.

FPTP has goven us endless Tory rule over the past 100 years with a minority of the vote and the elecorate. And what good has it done us? With PR, at least we get representative democracy. If the people vote in a way we don't like - tough. We've basically got that already.

I understand and agree, OP. There are many if us in this situation. I do not want to vote Conservative, but will if its the only way to keep Labour out. The safety of my daughter is the issue I will be swayed on. Labour cannot be trusted to keep women safe. They can't even define woman FFS. My Labour MP refused to answer the question!

The argument that FPTP gives stability is completely outdated, we have had more chaos under this 'stable' system in the last ten years than we had in decades previously.

Our system evolved around a two party state. But we don't live in the past any more, we live in the present and therefore we need to evolve again.

Our present parliamentary system is weakening us as a nation. We have had weak governments since 2010 and we have a lot of discord, we are a very divided country. The government today does not represent enough of the country, and a solo Labour government will not either. My personal political preference is for a single party government, but the reality is we can't keep imposing the views of a minority on the whole country in the way we currently are doing.

I understand. I’d be very careful to check with your Tory candidate where they stand on your priority issue.

Some poor constituents will end up with Tories like Penny TWAW Mordaunt who got us in this mess in the first place. There’s loads of Tories knee deep in it. And Lib Dems. Absolutely crackers, the lot of them, like they’ve been assimilated into the Borg.

Brilliantly put, thank you.

@SpinningAlwaysSadly I did check with my Tory candidate. I had a conversation with him as they all tend to do door to door canvassing during local elections. He was very clear on what a woman was and was keen to protect women only spaces. I emailed the lib dem candidate but received nothing back so not sure where this candidate stands on the issue so will do more research on this.

I think anyone pointing to europe as a model to follow hasn’t been following many elections there lately.
was it Denmark or maybe Belgium that had no government at all for several months and we do have an example of “power sharing” in one part of the U.K. already, Northern Ireland and they can’t agree either. They have had no government now for maybe a year?
for me FPTP is not perfect but it is the best system we have for as stable a system as possible. I don’t want 20 parties in government each with 2 or 3 or 20 seats. That sounds like a recipe for chaos ( more chaos!)

I take my hat off to the Tory PR machine.

I honestly do not know how they seem to have established themselves as the party that will be the defender of women's rights. It would be hilarious if it wasn't so tragic.

Safety for women for me stretches beyond TWIW.

It includes bolstering support for women in poverty, women carers (58% of carers are women), support for disabled women, a decent functioning justice system (police & courts) to tackle DV and rape cases, providing decent childcare options to support women in work and on.

"Tony Blair, for all his faults, understood where the national consensus is ( basically In the middle) and I don’t actually think that has really changed in terms of voter views despite the best efforts of social media."
^^ fully agree illiterato

How is voting for the party who brought us Self ID, refused to make misogyny a Hate Crime and governed very a time where less than 3% of rape suspects end up in court, nevermind convicted, good for your daughter's safety @GoldenPineapple88? BTW the Tory bonfire of women's rights is continuing.

As for they released the paper by accident? Is that their new lie? Like at least the Conservatives know what a woman is is a lie. Here's PM Johnson refusing to say that only women have a cervix: www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.express.co.uk/news/uk/1501654/Boris-Johnson-GB-News-latest-Conservative-Party-speech-woke-cancel-culture-woman-cervix-vn/amp
PM Johnson did this interview 1 week after KS said the same on Andrew Marr.

The Conservative Party have destroyed women's rights. They do not care about women.

Conservatives are destroying us all and our country unless you're one of the elite and can siphon money in a tax haven.

@sashagabadon thinking of the NI assembly as a normal functioning PR system is disingenuous and I hope you know that. Belgium did indeed not have a government for several years - and the country continued to function perfectly well, thank you.

There hasn't been a case of a country with PR having 20 or 30 parties each with a handful of seats after an election and I hope you know that too.

Meanwhile our FPTP system has landed us with 4 changes of PM in 6 years, plus a fortune spent on two unnecessary elections. That's without mentioning the lying, the corruption, the financial irregularities and the prorogation of parliament. Yes, a true beacon of democracy.

They didn't last time.

I am politically homeless! Won't vote Conservative or Labour.

Please can you rehare the video as the link didn't work for me.

I am so sick of people pretending the Tories care about women.

They have undermined women's rights since 2010.

@TheRubyRedshoes and what is your opinion of the blue tribalism this country is currently enduring? Or is it just the red kind you object to?