Shower thoughts... About cultural appropriation

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So, I'll start with this is light. Not a deeeeeep meaningful thought it anything. More of a pondering.

Is it cultural appropriation to make recipes from other cultures? So for example, my 3yo niece and I read the book Chapatti Moon, and from that we made chappatis and some pakora.

Would it be (in some way) cultural appropriation? Or ... Maybe appreciation?

I would err to appreciation. However, I might be wrong! My reasoning is it we were learning about different foods from around the world and made them to experience them. Not "take" them as our own. If that makes sense?

As such is the British curry an appropriation? How to do "gate keep" things? Societies evolve and move on, partly due to external influences...

It must be a fine line for some things?

/End rambling

My lines are: does it have spiritual/religious significance and/or would I be proffitting off of the thing. Just don't pretend you invented pakora yourself and you'll be fine.

Of course it’s not inappropriate to cook food from different countries or cultures

Not inappropriate at all to cook Indian food. It might be a bit dubious to open an Indian restaurant if you have no Indian heritage and with no Indian staff though!

That is an example of appreciation. If you started selling the chapatis as 'authentic' and making profit from other people's culture then that is appropriation - in my understanding.

You have too much time on your hands if this is what you’re worrying about.

Of course it’s not cultural appropriation to cook food from other cultures. If you look far enough back most of the foods we associate with certain cultures came from elsewhere originally. For instance, the Italians didn’t invent pasta. It’s believed to originate in either china or the Middle East.

Yes, it’s fine to eat food, listen to music etc from other cultures and the world would be a poorer place if we didn’t! I’m not sure why you are worried about this?
It’s only bad if you are insulting or parodying other cultures, or trivialising something that’s meaningful to others. That’s obviously not ok.

Exactly this. OP you're taking it way, way too far. It is wonderful to have so many influences from all over the world all around us.

Agree with EscapeRoom - I'd say the distinction is whether or not you profit from the 'appreciation' over and above a person from the culture in question.

Enjoying chapattis in the privacy of your own home hurts no-one, so have at it. If however, you then wrote a South Asian cuisine cookbook that sold millions, or got invited onto breakfast television to share your recipe with the nation, then that would be a whole other kettle of fish...

I thought that the whole idea of accepting mass immigration from cultures different from our own was to import new ideas and get new influences. But if all they want to do is complain about cultural appropriation then what point is left?

As far as I see, cultural appropriation only works one way round, that is if white people 'appropriate' stuff from other cultures and countries. The other way round it's just accepted as normal everyday practice.

Yes, it is cultural appropriation. Stick to eating raw turnips, op.

I think it's always a fine line and thinking about and questioning these are great. My understanding is that if you are either profiting from something that is important to another culture or you are taking part or replicating something which has a significant religious or cultural meaning and in the past was used against that culture (I'm not sure I can quite find the right words for this but certain styles of dress, hair, art that were used or banned to dominate and control or came from dominating a minority group) then it is cultural appropriation.
However lots of other cultures came to britain and shared their culture with us so we can happily appreciate it.

I’d be gutted if the lovely food van in the hills stopped making their Bajan Fish Cutter. I honestly don’t see the harm.

Also, pubs that serve a Thai curry. Can we take it too far?

I'd agree. If you suddenly started selling... I don't know... 'spiced fritter of chickpea with a rustic wrap bread' then you're into appropriation. Like that bloody spa water. It's stripping it of its ties to its culture / profiting from it / a combination of the 2 that is the line. I think.

Why are you even thinking this , just cook what you enjoy surely

As a British Indian, I think it's a lovely idea. I obviously don't speak for all Indians but I can't how that could possibly be deemed offensive. You might be judged on how round your chappatis are though. Nothing short of perfectly round will be deemed unacceptable!

We have a local Italian restaurant owned and run by Pakistanis.

And another Italian owned and run by Kosovans.

Eh? What would we eat if we didn't eat food from other cultures? I live on pasta

Males wearing traditionally female clothing, make up, hairstyles etc is appreciation. Males insisting that makes them female, and in some case profiting off their delusions, is appropriation.

I definitely agree with you.

It's nice that people in the UK have finally taken Mexican and Tex-Mex food on board. It was difficult to find it when I lived in England from 1995-2004. I am from Texas and Mexican-American so it pleases me that you can enjoy food from my culture too.

Now, Thomasina Myers does blur the line between appreciation and appropriation. She has said that she learned her skills from the local women in Oaxaca, Mexico and took what she learned back to England and presumably made a significant income with restaurants and book deals. I'm fairly certain she didn't share her royalties with those lovely women who taught her their recipes...

All our local fish and chip shops are either Turkish, Greek or Chinese owned and run.

I was going to say something along those lines @elp30 .

However, I’m also finding it difficult.
Let’s say one is of Indian origin (ethnically) and family has been in the U.K. for the last 3 or 4 generations (quite common after all). Can they claim to be able to sell a cooking book on Indian cooking even though they might well know as little as some of their English counterparts?
does it apply only to ‘ethnic’ food or aslo let’s say to French or Italian foods that could be ‘sold’ by French or Italian people?

And then there is the appropriation as in ‘I a: doing my version of the dish’ eg an anglicised version of tapas or pizza or Japanese food. Always well received my people but would have the ‘natives’ screaming at the thought of it….

If those women had wanted to charge her for her time they could have done. The fact that they (presumably) gave willingly to share their love of food with someone passionate about it, and whom they could clearly see was not Mexican, shouldn’t make it appropriation. That she has gone on to use skills she has learned to make a successful business would make most women very proud of her I’d have thought.

One if the most popular and successful pizza places in my town is run by an Indian man. He has trained with Italian pizza makers and has a proper wood fired oven, so his pizza is great. I’m of Italian descent but I can’t make pizza as well as he can. So why shouldn’t he run a successful business but I should be allowed to?

To me, appropriation is more about someone ‘cosplaying’ at a culture, but not acknowledging it as such. White people with dreadlocks for example, or young anime fans adopting Japanese cultural norms.

My teen DD is a bit like this. She will eat crisps with chopsticks and her make up is very much inspired by Japanese make up trends. On the plus side she has also adopted the tidiness and helpfulness she sees as part of Japanese culture, so I’m not going to knock it to be honest.

Unless the appropriation is in some way harmful or disrespectful to others, I can’t see why it should automatically be seen as a bad thing. With a global community there is always going to be some crossover between cultures and traditions and that should be welcomed.

If the same people who were “appropriating” were also being derogatory about those elements when worn/eaten/displayed by their original community then I could see a problem, but nobody is saying “it’s ok for me to do this as I’m appreciating your culture, but it’s not ok for you to do it”.

In the context of food, while some people may not appreciate the cuisine of another country, those who do shouldn’t be prevented from enjoying or sharing it in whatever way they are able, including as a business. That’s ridiculous gatekeeping in my opinion.

I probably have a very naive view of this being a white person but I always think it’s a bit of a shame when cultural appropriation is discussed. Obviously if people pass off styles / dishes / ideas as their own it’s inappropriate.

But I think it’s quite nice otherwise to have a melting point of things that come from different places, and nice to see different cultures rubbing off on one another.

The other way round is classed as integration and those who don't show signs of integration are looked down upon and generally told to go back to where they came from if they're not prepared to.