Why do so many people dislike the teaching profession?

[LucyLastik]

As the thread title asks.

I'm really interested to know where this negativity has come from. I'm suspecting Covid but if we don't get to the root cause of it, will the teaching profession ever be seen in a positive light?

Random musings...

What do you mean? You think kids should practice wearing a uniform for 14 years because they might have to wear one at work when they are an adult? Are adults so dim?

Nobody I know dislikes teachers. I've never heard it said, apart from by disgruntled teens.

In a similar vein, there is a certain kind of insularity that can develop in the kind of teacher, particularly in primary schools, who has never been in any working environment other than a school. DH and I have had the ‘pleasure’ of being talked down to by just such an individual about the school’s maths teaching methods. To put it politely, she didn’t appreciate her mathematical mistakes being pointed out.

As for children with SEN, I find it completely wrong-headed that the children with the most complex learning needs are routinely foisted on the under-qualified, under-skilled, underpaid and overworked TAs. These children should have specialist teachers who have done a year or two’s extra training in the psychology and biology of learning difficulties, not classroom assistants with a bolt-on to their Level 3 Early Years.

The teachers I know all moan a lot and think they work harder than everyone else. They also have never worked anywhere other than a school so have no idea about what a complex job is- example ‘I am head of department on 50k and my job is underpaid’- but don’t realise that a lot of it is operational and have no idea about why this is less well paid than a strategic role.

You really think that teacher pay rates are set with those distinctions in mind? The pay is inadequate because governments have always undervalued the work, Same with nurses: clap hands every Thursday but fuck your pay rise

Odd that all the teachers you know think they work harder than anyone else. Not sure how you know what they’re thinking. That’s quite a gift you have there. In 40+ years of teaching, in eight schools/colleges and two countries, I have never heard a teacher say this.

I really don't like all the moaning online on sm etc. guess what? Other jobs don't pay well but expect long hours often unpaid, I missed nearly everything to do with my dc when I was working and they were little because my hours were long. I even missed my dc 1st vaccines when I tried to book them in my lunch hour but work proved even lunch hours weren't actually available to me.
With the extra holiday I can't understand why it's so hard to not manage their year into sections of shit life vs bloody good life I mean 6 weeks off. When I started working I got 20 days leave plus bank holidays. Not easy when you go back when your dc is 6mo because you get statutory maternity. I don't disagree with their holidays at all & have teacher friends that do appreciate them but my god some of the teachers out there can literally never be happy.

And also why do teachers not include their actual contractual working hours when working out pay. The summer holidays isn't usually contractual working time so can be used to get a second job. They should quote their salary as hourly, would be a lot higher then. And as for its a grad job, again what grad job has that much annual leave. And surely you'd know it when you decide as a grad to do the job.

I'm another one for saying that I really don't think teaching is something that should be done straight from school/university. I'd have so much more respect for someone that had life experience and another professional job beforehand as I think would give a better perspective all round. It would also give someone the chance to back out more easily if it was too much for them, they would have other skills instead of sitting and whining about it all and never leaving.

The best teachers I know seem to appreciate what they have, deal with what they don't have and either get on with it or do something else.

I'm wondering what the parents of SEND children believe should be done with the rest of the class, including the other SEND children, whilst teachers focus on them.

My youngest has started school. I’ve just been given all the dates and times for the meet the teacher, phonics meetings, etc. I can’t make any of them as they are in working hours in the middle of the week. I’ve never been able to make any of them for my two older kids. I work part time in a pretty standard hours 08:30-5:00 job. Guess only the stay at home or work from home parents will get that luxury. Absolutely no consideration for working parents. I can’t even make parents evening 50% of the time. Parents evening used to actually be in its namesake but not any more.

I do see a lot of negativity towards teachers on MN. I think a lot of it initially was because teachers seemed to be more vocal during covid about how hard they had it. Now off the back of that there seem to be regular threads asking why people dislike teachers which invites more negativity. I don't ever recall seeing a similar thread by any other profession, although I'm sure there must have been a few.

I think a lot of teachers are used to being the smartest person in the room so can be a bit irritating at parties…

Difference is that you have the control to change your lawyer or doctor or stop going to the restaurant with a crap waiter. With teachers, you get what your given and can't do anything if they're crap!

Nothing to do with covid, there are similar threads re teachers on here long before covid.

Teachers create the rules - you think the volunteers, admin staff and the caterers are in charge of the culture - you are having a laugh, surely? It builds up from the beginning of a teacher's career - the Headteachers, the SLT - the decision makers were once teachers - they are the creators of the culture - it's on their shoulders, they reinforce the them and us. I was shocked when I was expected to address another adult by their title 18 year ago when my kids started school - it was still going on when they left. IMO it is part of the reason for the contempt - but I might be wrong - I often am!

Well, the school admin lady we have is somewhat formidable, although lovely. She’s been there for years. If a first name basis rule was put in place I can imagine she would be the first to raise an eyebrow to it. I certainly wouldn’t be brave enough to phone up the office and be the first to say ‘Hey Brenda…’

Ok. So I guess your frustration could logically be aimed at headteachers and school management? @WeAreRuined A regular teacher and certainly an NQT has little influence on that part of school culture. Just like they have little influence on uniform policies, homework, national curriculum content, exams culture and the handing out of attendance certificates. When there’s a thread on stuff like that I often find teachers are some of the first to say they don’t agree with these things.
Sorry but I think ‘teachers make the rules’ is an ignorant statement - and it is really you that’s ‘having a laugh’. It makes about as much sense as saying nurses and doctors are making the rules in terms of how hospitals are run or train drivers are in charge of how our railway system works. (Incidentally, do you also resent doctors because they are habitually referred to as ‘Doctor Bloggs’… not that a doctor has ever called me Mrs, it’s definitely my first name. At least with teachers it’s a mutual thing. Not that it bothers me, but you know, something for you to ponder on since being on first name terms is so important to you).
It just makes zero sense to me that you see all teachers in a negative light for this reason. A lot of bizarre reasons have been given on here. A few reasons have a valid premise. But this is I think the most irrational and bonkers.

Yes you do seen rather transfixed by my opinion on how insistence at using a title creates a them and us culture - clearly not a idea you care to entertain. 😂 My dislike of teachers (at school - two of my besties are ex teachers) is not solely focused on titles ( that’s your wild assumption) and that would indeed be daft - it’s more death by one thousand cuts.

Ive had the complete opposite experience to you then. There is most definitely not the respect for them that used to be there when i was being educated ( im late 40's)

Absolutely agree 100% in any other profession the way many teachers have behaved towards my ND child they would be up for disciplinary. I have been genuinely shocked by their attitude and have lost faith in them. I don’t hold the view that teachers are these god like creatures to worship, on the whole I have met maybe 2 or 3 that have been amazing, the rest were a huge disappointment

I’m wondering what you expect the parent and actual child to do when they are ASD and no other educational settings available. I expect the teacher to be knowledgable re SEN and also TAs to be. In my profession I am expected to know all of my job not just cherry pick. With knowledge teachers jobs would be easier but they have the attitude that they are above SEN and they are a huge inconvenience, this leads to a hugely upsetting and damaging experience for the child and parent. The situation is that there aren’t enough schools to have smaller class sizes, specialist add on units etc… if teachers go into this profession they already know this!!! If you can’t / don’t want to do it then teaching is not for you and you aren’t capable or wanted so please leave the profession or don’t join in the first place!

I love teaching, I am passionate about education, I desperately want to do my best by all the kids. I am very knowledgable about most common SEND diagnoses, and I try my best to incorporate small adjustments wherever possible.

But we just do not have the time. As an SEND parent, I can see why you'd think "it's literally 10 minutes' extra work" but it's 10 minutes' extra work per pupil, per lesson. Even allowing for the fact that the same adjustments will often work for more than one pupil, this is still at least an extra 1.5hrs every day.

Well, we finish at 3.45, so an extra 1.5hrs isn't so much? Except that's an EXTRA 1.5 hrs on top of at least 1hr regular planning/preparation, and 1.5-2hrs marking. And of course we have extra curricular expectations, meetings, duties, revision sessions etc etc.

Parents also expect us to be permanently on call to reply to all emails and phonecalls. But all those "10 minutes" have to come from somewhere! They'll either come from planning time, marking time, or SEND prep time.

And none of this takes into account the exhausting nature of the actual teaching! Performing for 5 hours a day, making literally hundreds of decisions every minute, dealing with behaviour, handing out detentions (that's another 30 minutes we have to find from somewhere). So in amongst everything else that's expected of us, the teaching often ends up taking lowest priority. We can't teach positive, fast paced, forward moving lessons when we're exhausted from all the other parts of the job.

Parents are not wrong to want better. But classroom teachers are the wrong target. The whole approach of chucking kids with often significant additional needs into a mainstream classroom, with up to 32 or 33 other kids, and then telling the teachers "just do better" isn't working.

@Aloeplant also,with regards "you aren't capable" : there is literally no human being who is capable of doing a good job in every aspect of teaching. Even before I had my own children, and I literally devoted my whole life to the job, every evening, every weekend, I couldn't do it all.

But you might well get your wish. More and more teachers are realising that they can't handle the stress of being set up to fail in this way, and we're leaving in droves.

I hear quite a few teachers claim they work harder than everyone else on mn. There is a mentality of a few mn teacher posters that they work in a uniquely difficult job. if you say « why don’t you leave and do something else » they claim it’s because they are so committed to childrens education (despite spending what must be most of their waking hours on mn deriding their job).

Tbf irl the teachers I know think they have a pretty good deal with the holidays and pension etc. Also I know quite a few good teachers who are good at their job and enjoy it. Of course things are not perfect in schools but no workplace is perfect.

to answer ops question - I don’t think people dislike teachers at all. But there is a group of disaffected teachers on mn forever posting about how they are so hard done by (and even on some threads aggressively attacking and trolling other posters). I think people can’t be doing with that.

@PotatoHammock as I said I have had 2/3 teachers that have been amazing so it is possible. The attitude I have experienced from others has been discriminating at the very least. I also work in a profession where the general consensus is that we are complained about, it is the nature of the profession and only people who work in that profession know how stressful and thankless it is. But you know what, we don’t stamp our feet and cherry pick clients. We are professionals that chose this demanding career path that ultimately helps people. We would be struck off if we treated disabled people with the contempt a lot of teachers do and quite rightly. We deal with a far broader range of people from every walk of life. One of the teachers that was exceptional actually told me that good teachers teach as an ASD teacher would as all pupils benefit. Just for comparison, I never switch off from work, always contacted on holidays / weekends/ evenings. Don’t get all the holidays teachers get, need childcare in these holidays, the list goes on and on

Just to add, I am all for paying teachers a lot more but for very good quality teachers. It is an important job that requires exceptional people to do it. Make the profession more attractive to these brilliant people and get rid of the slackers

@Aloeplant i just know that out of the 200 or so children I teach per year, there will be some who would describe me as a great teacher, but there will be some who I've let down (haven't replied to an email quickly enough, haven't dealt with a friendship issue effectively enough, haven't disciplined disruptive pupils harshly enough, or I have disciplined their own disruptive pupil too harshly, haven't remembered to copy onto blue paper, haven't realised their child has been copying homework all year and hasn't actually understood anything, the list goes on).

I'm just almost certain that those few teachers who you felt were outstanding will almost certainly have dropped a ball somewhere else along the line.

FWIW I personally don't want more pay. I just want the time, and the headspace, to be able to do the job well, for all my pupils.

The whole education system in this country needs to be abolished and rebuilt from scratch to serve the purposes of 21st century Britain. So much of it is stuck in the 20th century, in some cases the 19th century. So much of what kids spend all day in school doing is absolutely irrelevant busy work, and a lot of parents just view schools as glorified day care.

@PotatoHammock I am not talking about dropping a ball. Teachers like everyone else in the universe are humans and mistakes / oversights happen, although in my profession there would be legal consequences if we did make a mistake to the detriment of the client I might add, as I said it is very very stressful. I am not the kind of parent that jumps all over the teacher for minor reasons (I know some do). I am talking about blatant discrimination toward SEN kids. Teachers chose the profession, our kids did not choose to be SEN. Teachers know they will have to teach SEN amongst their other pupils, that is how our school system works. It shouldn’t be a shock, teachers should have the skills to do this. You can’t be a surgeon and not know the workings of the heart! It is all or nothing. If you aren’t equipped to do it then fine don’t do it. I’m sure there are lots of other careers that are as rewarding to go into. Please don’t put the mental health of our children at risk because you think you are the next Miss Honey. Parents of SEN kids can quickly see the teachers that are lacking. Unfortunately it goes with the territory