Learning native languages should be compulsory in the U.K

[RainCloud]

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2022/jul/25/why-i-quit-gaelic-language-forefathers-vocabulary?CMP=ShareiOSAppp_Other

I saw this article earlier and it made me sad that the number Scottish Gaelic speakers are declining. I think it should be compulsory for us all to learn Scottish Gaelic and Welsh at school, all over the U.K. I'm not saying that we should all be fluent but we should learn the basics. It might inspire more people to become fluent and stop the languages dying out.

Both airport and computer are words which have Latin roots, and have been absorbed into the English language. There's no reason why Gaelic shouldn't be afforded the same flexibility as English.

Most of those children do not go on to use Gaelic as a main language as adults which is seen in the declining figures. Long term, the millions spent does not represent a return on investment.

As already stated before, UNESCO project that half of the world's languages will disappear by 22nd Century. Including all forms of Gaelic.

Languages like English, Chinese, French, German, Spanish and Portuguese are more complex than in the past. They require more time spent learning than in the past which means even less time to spend on learning minority languages.

Global economics is a major killer of minority languages. Climate Change will be another.

Nature has a law - evolve or die. Diversity usually grows after an extinction too.

Duolingo won't, cannot and isn't intended to create fluency in any language as it focuses on passive learning. You can learn helpful phrases well enough to get the gist of short exposure, e.g. ordering in restaurants or asking for directions.

But active learning cannot be done on apps and its this that creates fluency. There are now more Gaelic learners outside the British Isles than there are native speakers within it. IIRC, there are no monoglots in Gaelic which leads to further decline.

Language as marker of identity and, therefore, political weaponisation has not done very well in the 20th or 21st Centuries. Globalisation is the main reason for this and has therefore strangled minority languages.

In the 21st Century, far more people are interested in learning languages for practical reasons than for romantic, idealised identity reasons.

@DownNative I don’t really understand how modern languages are growing in complexity? They’ve not evolved that much, and language acquisition knowledge and technology has made great strides.

The same linguistic effort you quote has also praised the Welsh for the positive steps taken, which suggests these languages are not doomed at all.

“It’s great to see that some are committed to preserving their native tongue. The Welsh government have set themselves ambitious targets to double the number of native speakers by 2050. This is a really positive step forward.”

• Federico Espinosa

Not only does studying native minority languages have cognitive benefits (especially with immersion learning), it puts people in touch with their country’s history, heritage and culture. It’s a good antidote for the bland transatlanticism of Netflix, Marvel, etc.

@DownNative

”Most of those children do not go on to use Gaelic as a main language as adults which is seen in the declining figures. Long term, the millions spent does not represent a return on investment.”

But in terms of education, there is virtually no additional investment. A Gaelic-speaking teacher gets paid the same as an English-speaking teacher, etc. Meanwhile, the children get the benefit of bilingualism, and immersion in an oral and musical culture, and many of them can go onto careers in broadcasting, education, cultural development, and music. They are still taught an additional modern language in primary school, too.

The benefits of bilingualism only holds if children continue to use that second language alongside their native language into adulthood.

In Scotland, the £27 million poured into Gaelic is in an attempt to stave off language decline by teaching it in schools. But Gaelic is declining in Scotland as elsewhere in the British Isles which means this is NOT a good return on investment in the first place! 🤔

The Republic of Ireland has spent even more over several decades and Gaelic is still declining there.

Ditto Isle of Man.

Ditto Welsh as covered before.

The pay of teachers doesn't come into it here. But money paying for educational services DOES.

Indeed, it's been found that lockdown has resulted in a decline in fluency in children taught at these Gaelic schools as well. Decline erodes any benefits of bilingualism as well.

The money would be better spent on subjects that would benefit children in an educational sense as well as the taxpayer in a practical sense.

Refer to UNESCO projection of half of the world's languages disappearing by the 22nd Century too. Globalisation and climate change further demonstrate its not a return in educational investment.

Science, for example, continues to demonstrate a clear return on investment whenever more money is allocated to it.

Big difference there.

But it’s perfectly possible to study Science in Gaelic! So where’s the loss?

Most if not all Gaelic speakers are completely fluent in English, the language in which the majority of scientific texts are written. Would seem a bit silly for them to study science in Gaelic when they could do it in English.

I see you missed bit where Federico Espinosa states that all these minority languages are STILL disappearing.

“Most governments to some extent or another are trying to save languages, Wales is with Welsh, Scotland is trying to save Scots Gaelic, and Isle of Man is trying to save Manx, yet all of these languages are still going.”

Federico Espinosa, Lead Language Expert at Busuu.

Yes, Espinosa praises the efforts of various governments in their efforts to attempt reverse language decline.

But this is absolutely CONDITIONAL on these minority languages continuing to grow. The opposite is occurring with all types of Gaelic, Cornish and many other minority languages globally.

Modern languages haven't evolved much? Ard you kidding me?!

Consider the fact we have words NOW that didn't exist in the past, largely thanks to modern scientific and technological discoveries as well as innovation.

Modern European languages are grammatically more complicated than Latin and ancient Greek!

We have considerably MORE dialects today than at any time in human history. More languages too.

Languages might seem to NOT have evolved much but that's largely down to our familiarity with them.

As for minority languages being a "good antidote for the bland transatlanticism of Netflix, Marvel, etc"....sorry, the reverse occurs.

The dominant language of the internet is English followed by French, Spanish, Mandarin and Portuguese, for example. And the Internet threatens minority languages too.

Hence UNESCO projection of Gaelic disappearing by the 22nd Century.

Learning French to GCSE was a complete waste of time IMO. I remember trying to use it in France when I was much younger and not one person understood me trying to ask where the supermarket was. I definitely wouldn't have wanted to learn Cornish, no interest what so ever and no use at all IMO.

Languages like English, Chinese, French, German, Spanish and Portuguese are more complex than in the past. They require more time spent learning than in the past which means even less time to spend on learning minority languages.

I agree with most of your points but not with this. Languages evolve over time to be less, not more, complex. It makes sense when you think about it. I don't know much about Chinese, but French, Spanish and Portuguese are all descended from Latin, which had a highly complex case system which all modern Romance languages have mostly discarded. German is the outlier among major Germanic languages in the sense that it still has a case system. Old English had one too, and was generally a lot more grammatically complex than modern English.

So I disagree that modern languages require more time to learn them.

Only if you insist on a strictly utilitarian, Anglo-centric view of education, and downplay the secondary benefits of less tangible accomplishments, I’d say.

It would be superb if each child could learn a language of their choosing. Perhaps

Good luck finding a Science course completely taught in Gaelic at universities which is where scientific learning and research really comes to the fore! 🙄

English is the lingua franca of science. Even Chinese scientists as Nature.com noted:

"Chinese researchers have made huge contributions to global science, but they've mostly done that using English."

Since everyone in the British Isles understands and speaks English fluently, it stands to reason science will be taught in English.

English IS the international language of science and most of the important scientific discoveries is still communicated in English.

Not Gaelic.

Ergo, English in science represents a return on investment. Gaelic does not.

At this point, you appear to be scraping the bottom of the barrel in an attempt to shore up a defence of Gaelic here.....🤷‍♂️

*Perhaps through an online course.

I was forced to study French which I hated. I loved Spanish and felt the hour of French was a complete waste of time.

Sometimes you need to protect a language because it hasn’t died out, it got stamped out. For example Welsh was stamped out in a lot of areas by the English. Welsh children were forced to stand and wear a welsh not for speaking welsh in school. It created a huge decline in the language which is why there is a big push to revive it. My family is fluent welsh, it is a huge part of our lives. The language and the culture are important. Saying that, I don’t think people in England, Scotland or N. Ireland need to be learning welsh- that seems pointless.

In schools I mean, obviously Anyone can learn welsh in their own time!

www.bbc.com/news/uk-wales-51036598.amp

What a thread.

I was born in Scotland as were my DCs, live there now, I'm now 70 yrs old and I have known one Gaelic speaker, the father of a friend who came from Argyll and died in 2009 at a ripe old age.

I don't think it should be compulsory but if someone chooses to fine.

I’m not scraping any barrel at all, I’m just trying to chase after your constantly moving goalposts! from funding in primary schools, to syllabus space, to the availability of Gaelic in leading tertiary institutions.

The fact is, the offer of Gaelic provides many educational, cognitive, and cultural opportunities - which have applications in the real, commercial world - for hardly any extra resource. Nowhere in any of my posts have I suggested that this should be compulsory. I know from experience that for many GME pupils, Gaelic is their fourth language (before starting to study a fifth), so there’s very little money, time or other MFL cost.

My DS started learning French in reception, carried on until year 6, now German, Spanish and Latin at secondary. Contrary to your snide, predictable, anti Gov generalisations

Two MFLs are compulsory in Scottish primary schools, I don’t know about secondary. (In GME one of the MFLs is English, and the other is either French or Spanish).

How's Irish in NI going to work when half of the population don't want to speak it because they consider themselves British? It's a big reason why we don't have a functioning Executive right now ...

I appreciate it’s a very different situation in NI, and one I don’t understand. At my child’s GME school, there are plenty English parents, and anti-SNP parents. Which I think is healthy.

I am learning Cornish- which is undergoing a bit of a revival after becoming virtually extinct in the early nineteenth century. Ok, so it's a very minority language but integral to Cornish identity, culture and history. But I don't think people in the rest of the UK should be forced to learn it.