Learning native languages should be compulsory in the U.K

[RainCloud]

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2022/jul/25/why-i-quit-gaelic-language-forefathers-vocabulary?CMP=ShareiOSAppp_Other

I saw this article earlier and it made me sad that the number Scottish Gaelic speakers are declining. I think it should be compulsory for us all to learn Scottish Gaelic and Welsh at school, all over the U.K. I'm not saying that we should all be fluent but we should learn the basics. It might inspire more people to become fluent and stop the languages dying out.

Honestly, @DownNative its been an interesting (in part) debate, but you seem so anti-minority languages in a way that is slightly strange.

You seem determined not to acknowledge the many and rich cultural benefits these languages offer, so I will leave you to your anti-Gaelic voodoo dolls and leave this argument here!

It just seems so reductionist and anti-intellectual. 💁

Maybe you should try one and see?

Beannachd leibh!

You admitted earlier you don't understand Northern Ireland's sensitive political history. Yet here to are attempting to claim Gaelic can help to bridge the divide!

No, that's not how it works at all. The fundamental divide is one based on national identity. That is why Michael Collins, his IRA and the Gaelic League chose to politically weaponise the language as demonstrated several posts ago. It became entwined with the whole "Brits Out!" agenda which invariably means Protestants as well as Catholics who were termed "collaborators" hence "Gerry Fitt the Brit!".

Neither English or Gaelic has any chance of bridging any divide. National identity IS the defining divide.

Ulster-Scots also isn't a language most Unionists are interested in. The Ulster-Scots SicietySociety is a very small group.

But the Identity and Language (Northern Ireland) Bill is extremely widely known as the Irish Language Act. Including by Irish language activists. Gaelic is afforded protection in it whereas Ulster-Scots isn't which is another crucial distinction.

As I said, I've no interest in Gaelic or Ulster-Scots. English allows me to communicate with many more people than either of those would. Portuguese allows me to communicate with many more people as well. It's a tool to communicate.

I've no interest in a language for political or romantic reasons.

Identities don't die away just because a native language declines and dies. We know this from various groups around the world. Irish people as a majority clearly do not feel its necessary to know Gaelic in order to have an Irish identity. Identities can and often do survive language death.

I am as soft a unionist as they come. I'm not a loyalist and I am a democrat and would totally respect the result of a border poll in future should that lead to reunification. I vote alliance all the way.

But if Irish was made compulsory in schools in any way shape or form in the current political set up - even as an introduction - I would vote for whatever party was strongest against that. I feel very very strongly about it.

Quite the contrary, actually.

My argument is any romantic ideal or reasons do not trump the actual numbers in light of language decline. Its not "anti-intellectual" to cite the studies as well as census figures. Its intellectual to do so!

What's actually anti-intellectual is to ignore or distort those figures as well as what is really being said.

But when you don't have anything meaningful or useful to add to debate, throw out buzzwords such asa"anti-intellectual" or "reductionist" out there!

I understand you're emotionally attached Scottish Gaelic. Me? I'm simply not emotionally attached to any language a it doesn't define the totality of my identity. Its a tool of communication.

But you have not been able to overcome the objective numbers and academic understanding of linguistics against your assertions.....so far. 🤐

Sadly, since England dropped any requirement to obtain a GCSE in a foreign language and fewer schools now offer languages, modern foreign language teaching is in serious decline.
Meanwhile, knowing a little French, Italian, Spanish or German is far more useful for most people than Welsh or other British languages are outside the home territories.
My Irish relatives tell me they have never used a single word of the Irish language since leaving school.

Yes, like you I'm absolutely not a Loyalist and nowhere close to one. Catholic Unionist, yes. Loyalist no. I'd vote for Alliance if I was still living in Northern Ireland but I've never voted there in my life as I left before the first opportunity presented itself a few short years after the GFA.

So, similar to yourself.

I just have a very practical experience of language and can see its not as necessary for identity as commonly assumed. I like to use facts and figures to support an argument I'm making.

Anecdotes is quite an immature way of discussing or debating any topic.

Anyone can learn Gaelic....crack on! An Irish Language Act is not something I feel threatened by because the figures tell us its far away from that. It's the political weaponisation by the Provos I don't like for good reason.

But let's not ignore the statistics!

I’m not sure of the benefit of forcing Celtic languages on the English to be honest. However I think English people need to wake up if they think their future as monoglots is a secure one. Quite simply it seems lazy and arrogant, hails back to a time when England’s position was quite different to what it is now.

My child attends a Welsh medium. Because I believe in striving to keep the Welsh language alive but even more so, I understand the benefit of bilingualism. Same child will be attending Mandarin lessons privately in the coming academic year and will pick up a MFL (or two) when they eventually attend secondary school.

The world is modernising yes - tech will take all kinds of jobs from people in the future, the ability to communicate and do it well become key.

How can a thread be ignorant? Individual posters can be ignorant, but not the entire thread.

The OP already answered this question upthread, where she stated, "Scottish Gaelic and Welsh came to mind because of the article in my OP but other languages (that I'm not aware of) could be included."

English is in no danger any time soon, so it can afford to have monoglots as can Spanish, Mandarin and Portuguese, for example.

The main reason why English as a language still mostly has monoglots is because English became so entwined with modern economic development. Largely due to the strength of the United States of America itself.

Many, many English speakers tend to find foreigners will want to communicate with them in English so that non-native speakers can practice their own English language skills! In that situation, it's obvious English language speakers will then take the path of least resistance.

Still, it would be good if English language speakers could develop skills at a secondary language more. Something like French, German, Spanish or Portuguese would all be the most logical choices.

I notice you said "English people", but the vast majority of people in Scotland, Northern Ireland, Wales and the Republic of Ireland are not themselves actual second language speakers either. We're still a mostly monoglot people within the British Isles archipelago. Similarly, most people in the USA, Canada and Australia are still mostly monoglots. A minority of people in the Anglosphere are bilingual.

Oh don’t be bloody ridiculous.

Like schools don’t have enough to teach, and who is going to teach these minority languages all over the UK??

It’s a regional matter. I’m all for schools in Nations/Regions where other UK languages are spoken teaching them, assuming the community is supportive.

But mostly language teaching in the UK should be focused on languages from outside the UK ie major European languages, Mandarin, Russian, Arabic etc. A) because it’s useful for getting a job, and B) because we need to focus on building relationships with the rest of the world

Similarly, most people in the USA, Canada and Australia are still mostly monoglots. A minority of people in the Anglosphere are bilingual.

Is that true of Canada despite it being an officially bilingual country? I'm betting there aren't too many monolingual francophones.

Yes, it still holds.

Population by first official language spoken

French 7,914,498 (22.8%)

English 26,216,233 (75.4%)

Bilingual French and English 216,075 (17.9%)

Source: Statistics Canada, 2016 Census

Since 1996, English as a first language has grown just over 2% and French grew about the same. Bilingualism had the smallest increase 0.9%.

Population by mother tongue

French 21%

English 57%

Other 22%

The most popular language in Other is Mandarin spoken by 1.8% of the Canadian population.

As we can see, a majority of Canadians are still monoglots - whether that's monoglot French or monoglot English. English has the most monoglots of any language in Canada.

Thanks, that's interesting- not sure if it sheds any light on the topic of this thread.

Looking at the percentages given above, it only stacks up in most of the 22% Other also speak English or French! So there’s 1 in 5 bilingual Canadians before you start teasing out how many of the 22.8% French first language people are bilingual (and the same for English).

The percentages quoted by @DownNative for French, English and Bilingual form a Venn diagram. It’s impossible to know from their data whether most French are bilingual or not.

(This doesn’t count the Canadians who may have studied another language to fluency. Nor is there any data given how many people are first language / bilingual in Scots Gaelic in Canada, as it exists in Nova Scotia.)

According to the US Census Bureau, 1 in 5 Americans speak a language other than English at home. Again, this doesn’t include the millions of Americans who will speak English at home, but have mastered another language.

Monoglottism may dominate, but 1 in 5 (minimum) bilingual people is not insignificant.

That's why I included the percentage who speak French, English or Other as a mother tongue in a separate breakdown.

Here:

Population by mother tongue

French 21%

English 57%

Other 22%

Approximately:

21,660,000 million Canadians speak English only.

7,980,000 million speak French only.

8,360,000 speak Other languages.

This allows us to see where the extra English language speakers comes from in Canada. Yet even with these excluded English remains the most commonly spoken language in Canada by some distance.

The bilingual language speakers are considerably short of 25% of the population, but no-one said it was insignificant.

Just that it holds true that most Canadians are still monoglots, especially in English.

Its only useful if you use it everyday. Whether you live or work in one of those countries.

i, live and work in wales. How can you say its far more useful to most, when here i use it? I have an A in french GCSE. Last time i use it was for my oral exam in 1991. So its not useful to most. Its only useful if you use it.

with attitudes like this, no wonder some Celtic languages die out when people “can’t be bothered”

So I looked it up, and according to Statistics Canada, 19.4% of people reported speaking more than 1 language at home.

www12.statcan.gc.ca/census-recensement/2016/as-sa/98-200-x/2016010/98-200-x2016010-eng.cfm

Again, close to the 1:5. I wonder what it is in the UK?

with attitudes like this, no wonder some Celtic languages die out when people “can’t be bothered”

Well... that's sort of the point isn't it? The people who are bothered can learn but if most people aren't bothered is there a compelling reason that they ought to be?

Your point that languages are useful only if people use it I daily life is sound.

But most people in Wales don't do so with Welsh regularly - just 29% speak it to varying levels of proficiency. The rest of the Welsh population simply do not for a variety of reasons.

You live in Gwynedd where approximately 76% of people speak Welsh.

According to the Welsh Government:

"The highest numbers of Welsh speakers continue to be found in Carmarthenshire (94,600) and Gwynedd (90,700)."

And:

"The highest percentages of Welsh speakers can be found in Gwynedd (76%) and the Isle of Anglesey (68%)."

From this, we can conclude that 76% of all people living in County Gwynedd speak Welsh....where you're living.

Of the 29.1% of people in Wales who can speak Welsh:

15.7% (477,100) of people aged three or over reported that they spoke Welsh daily

4.9% (149,000) weekly

6.9% (209,300) less often

Around 1.6% (47,900) reported that they never spoke Welsh despite being able to speak it

the remaining 70.9% not able to speak Welsh

So, 70.9% of the population of Wales cannot speak Welsh. Fewer than 1 million people in Wales claim varying levels of proficiency in Welsh.

So, the figures tell us the usefulness of Welsh is still limited in Wales. UNESCO classify Welsh as VULNERABLE.

Source:

gov.wales/welsh-language-data-annual-population-survey-april-2020-march-2021#:~:text=For%20the%20year%20ending%2031,to%20around%2024%2C600%20more%20people.

@DownNative you keep referring to ROI when that's not the Issue. The Irish language is continuing to grow in the north as came be seen by new nurseries/ primary and secondary schools being opened.

I thought you might have been referring to the 2011 census- 11 years ago. Wait until the full details of the upcoming census comes out.

Likewise in Scotland: there’s been a large expansion in new nurseries, primaries and secondaries - and the 2011 Census was pre Duolingo. But even a doubling of language speakers would probably take it to less than 3% of the population.

@DownNative CBA with you anymore. All this copy and pasting is doing my head in.

"you keep referring to ROI when that's not the Issue."

The ROI is the best example of what's happening in reality with the Gaelic language. Specifically, the efforts of the State to promote and attempt to protect it.

Despite all of that, it's declining anyway. And that is a strong argument against doing the same thing in Northern Ireland where things are even more contested.

"The Irish language is continuing to grow in the north as came be seen by new nurseries/ primary and secondary schools being opened."

No, this doesn't truly reflect real growth. Firstly, Gaelic has come from a low bar and growth is easier to see. Secondly, it is NOT the numbers of schools that really matters in regards to language survival.

It is intergenerational transmission, i.e. families speaking a language as a main language at home.

What occurs in the Republic of Ireland is that the vast majority leave school and never really use Gaelic again. See the earlier point about the Irish Census overinflating total numbers of Gaelic speakers in contrast to other authoritative bodies who have it between 20-40,000 speakers.

Therefore, Gaelic is classified by UNESCO as 'Definitely Endangered'....Despite the efforts of the Republic of Ireland Government in a State whose population is much bigger than Northern Ireland's.

And you claim events in ROI is not an issue?

Well.....

By the way, there's only two Gaelic secondary schools in Northern Ireland.

"I thought you might have been referring to the 2011 census- 11 years ago. Wait until the full details of the upcoming census comes out."

The 2011 census results is still the current best set of data in both Northern Ireland and the Republic of Ireland.

The 2021 census results won't be too different.

Off you pop when faced with your own devolved Welsh Government's own statistics which simply undermines your posts....fab! 🤷‍♂️

It seems you don't like evidence which is why all your posts rely on your own daily life instead.

70% of people in Wales don't speak Welsh. Accept this fact.

"The marginal levels of familial transmission of Gaelic in all the preschool catchment areas are indicated in the responses of preschool managers or teachers. A small proportion of preschoolers were judged to have Fluent, Good or Reasonable Gaelic on enrolment in the preschools: 8% of the 359 preschoolers. It is clear from this statistic alone that the home transmission of Gaelic has contracted to such an extent that it is now at the point of total loss.....

Given how marginal the home transmission of Gaelic is, the remaining Gaelic networks are becoming confined to the elderly and some institutional practice."

• University Of The Highlands & Islands study "The Gaelic Crisis in the Vernacular Community"

As I said before, the number of Gaelic schools in Scotland or elsewhere is misleading as this is not critical to language survival.

Intergenerational transmission is the most important thing. You cannot understand the entire issue if you can't grasp this fact.

The majority of children in these schools will not continue using Gaelic into adulthood just like in the Republic of Ireland.

Duolingo does not aid intergenerational transmission and certainly doesn't enable anyone to become fluent in any language.