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Original poster

"He's in top sets for everything"

241 replies

isitanywonderthat · 17/07/2022 10:11

How do people know this? Genuine question, I have 2 dc now in secondary school and I haven't a clue what art they are in for anything. Never have at secondary or primary. Never been given this information and never asked.

How do all the mners with DC in top sets have this information?

OP posts:
NeedAHoliday2021 · 17/07/2022 13:44

I’ve decided to stop stressing. Dd was top set maths and then over 2 years dropped 2 sets but she’s still predicted a 7 at gcse and is happy in the class. Her teacher said she could probably move up one but as she’s happy, settled and doing well she’s inclined to keep her in this set as they do the same syllabus just with a smaller class so she can give more support. For English dd is top set predicted a 9 and science second set - predicted an 8.

school have never told me this so only what dd has said. She’s happy, her grades are good so not worth questioning.

WombatChocolate · 17/07/2022 13:46

They always know.

Even in infants my DC knew that if you were on Octogon table, that was harder work than circles and triangles were doing. The more sides your shape had, the higher the level. Hahha. Made me laugh. People on circle table knew their shape didn’t have sides!

You might not know immediately, but within a couple of weeks people know.

Older kids might ask the teacher. The teacher won’t make a big thing of it, but they also generally won’t lie.

floweringpoppies · 17/07/2022 13:47

In secondary school they have higher and lower papers for gcse so the higher sets for the higher papers. It's easy to tell

Interested in this thread?

Then you might like threads about this subject:

General education
Léighméleabhair · 17/07/2022 13:56

FuckingHateRats · 17/07/2022 12:26

I'm a secondary teacher here.

The language around this issue drives me wild. I actually sit and seethe in meetings where colleagues refer to kids as 'lower ability' or 'lower ability' sets. If we wouldn't use that language to their parents, don't talk about kids that way.

Setting is pretty grim. A wide range of evidence points towards mixed ability classes having the best outcomes for ALL learners, not just the supposed 'top'.

How does being in a mixed ability group motivate the more academic child to improve?
Genuine question.

My DS was very bored in Primary school as the large class sizes meant that the teacher was constantly trying to assist those struggling to master basic concepts. The less able children were usually sat with the brighter kids who were then expected to spend time helping them with their work.

DS positively loved lockdown when he could get on and do his own thing at home without having to be mindful of what someone else was doing.

PurpleCatCuddles · 17/07/2022 13:57

I think it's common knowledge to know? I knew from 8 to end of school years that I was top set for English and bottom set for Maths. It was incredibly obvious!

Threetulips · 17/07/2022 14:01

Setting is pretty grim. A wide range of evidence points towards mixed ability classes having the best outcomes for ALL learners, not just the supposed 'top'.

No it doesn’t - I have twins who are in different sets, one top one bottom.

DS defiantly needed a smaller group at a slower pace, DD needed others to bounce stuff off.

Different needs - DD A* maths a year early DS C in maths from set 5

They can do it.

XSnoe · 17/07/2022 14:06

We were told at secondary which sets we were in, Set 1, Set 2, of Set 3. It wasn't hidden from us, we knew.

We had tests during the year, and sometimes these would result in being moved up or down a set. We were aware of this too.

I don't really know why it would be hidden. It was absolutely given common knowledge.

BeenThereBoughtTheTeeShirt · 17/07/2022 14:11

@Singleandproud
Are you State or public?
Do you have textbooks or use worksheets in lieu? How do you afford 90 worksheets per class per lesson/30 of which are written on, so not recyclable for parallel classes?
Do not misunderstand me, I am impressed if that is how you are doing it at secondary because I hardly ever see proper differentiation by task.
Aside from death by worksheet criticism, it would be good to see but budget constraints would influence that in many schools.

BeenThereBoughtTheTeeShirt · 17/07/2022 14:36

"Teaching to the top" is the expectation, with differentiation by outcome (deepening the moment/extra challenge sprinkled in).The "all/most/a few" will do... model is no longer in favour. The "higher PowerPoint fits all" method means that teachers have high expectations of all pupils but I still see pupils left behind/unable to access it, as the scaffolding is not always there.
Teaching assistants are now supposed to be supporting the majority, to allow the teacher to give more support to pupils with SEN, but this does not always happen.
Mixed ability groups are meant to pull up the weaker pupils. Nonetheless, it only takes a few disruptive pupils (of any ability) to destroy a lesson if they choose to, with a majority of silently suffering soldiering on.
I do not believe in creating sink sets. Nurturing groups, however, I have seen work very well.

BungleandGeorge · 17/07/2022 15:32

Singleandproud · 17/07/2022 13:37

@BungleandGeorge not really, you know your class. I'll watch who picks which sheet if they pick the one that's too easy or hard I'll give them a few minutes to give it a go and when I go around and check their work I'll tell them to go get the more appropriate one or will handwrite a couple of questions into their book. Or if they finish really fast they'll try the next level up. They soon realise I won't let them take the easy way out. Or instead of letting them pick I'll physically hand out the appropriate worksheet.

How large is your class? Ours are over 30 so even 1 minute checking with each student would be over half an hour…

BeenThereBoughtTheTeeShirt · 17/07/2022 17:21

Well, that might be doable if they have an hour:
10 mins register and do now, 15 mins demo/intro, 30 mins differentiated main task(s) 5 mins pack up/plenary. (Although like the all/most/some, I think starter/main/plenary has also lost favour, cannot keep up!). But that amount of planning and reprographics, unless there are tri-partite sheets out there already, would be huge personal and financial cost (you'd have thought someone would have, by now, but not seen publishers do proper differentiated tasks 3worksheets in bulk...that would lose them money long term).

carefullycourageous · 17/07/2022 17:27

How does being in a mixed ability group motivate the more academic child to improve? People who want to learn are motivated from within, they do not need to be surrounded by others at their level. Those children who are outstanding do not tread water waiting for the others to catch them up. Education is not about comeptition, it is about the individual wanting to learn.

Original poster
isitanywonderthat · 17/07/2022 18:26

Well, readers, I asked my 13yo DD. She said her school only has sets for maths (as others have said) and she looked at me like I had two heads when I asked her if there was something going on with the tables at primary school that related to pupil's ability.

So there you have it. I hope this thread has been informative to those of you who insisted that I should know what sets my kids are in.

OP posts:
maloryshowers · 17/07/2022 18:52

Quite telling that she looked at you like you had 2 heads

alphapie · 17/07/2022 18:58

isitanywonderthat · 17/07/2022 18:26

Well, readers, I asked my 13yo DD. She said her school only has sets for maths (as others have said) and she looked at me like I had two heads when I asked her if there was something going on with the tables at primary school that related to pupil's ability.

So there you have it. I hope this thread has been informative to those of you who insisted that I should know what sets my kids are in.

So she admits there are sets for maths, and you didn't know about them.

You sound like such a detached parent.

redskyatnight · 17/07/2022 19:00

DD's Year 1 NQT called her groups 1,2,3,4,5 and 6.
Only she just used the numbering for convenience and they did not relate to ability level in any way shape or form.
Regardless, there were parents of bright children in despair and insisting on constant meetings with the teacher and that their child be moved from "set" 4 or 5 as it was clearly not the right "set" for them. Regardless of the number of times that the teacher explained that they were not sets but mixed ability levels.

After the first half term the groups were renamed to be colours.

Mellie555 · 17/07/2022 19:08

My youngest son was in lowest set for everything. He therefore labelled himself as stupid and it’s done a lot of harm to his confidence over the years. Schools need to get with the programme that just cos you’re not academically gifted doesn’t mean you are not intelligent or able. My son is one of the top gamers in the country for example.

ChiefWiggumsBoy · 17/07/2022 19:31

Hmm. This isn’t something I’ve actually ever thought about - but now I do I realise I don’t know what sets mine are in.

When I was at school our classes were labelled for the set. They aren’t now.

Russell19 · 17/07/2022 19:37

BeenThereBoughtTheTeeShirt · 17/07/2022 14:36

"Teaching to the top" is the expectation, with differentiation by outcome (deepening the moment/extra challenge sprinkled in).The "all/most/a few" will do... model is no longer in favour. The "higher PowerPoint fits all" method means that teachers have high expectations of all pupils but I still see pupils left behind/unable to access it, as the scaffolding is not always there.
Teaching assistants are now supposed to be supporting the majority, to allow the teacher to give more support to pupils with SEN, but this does not always happen.
Mixed ability groups are meant to pull up the weaker pupils. Nonetheless, it only takes a few disruptive pupils (of any ability) to destroy a lesson if they choose to, with a majority of silently suffering soldiering on.
I do not believe in creating sink sets. Nurturing groups, however, I have seen work very well.

Phew at last someone who actually knows about education commenting. Reading all these parents comments about ability and sets is just mind numbing. No offence mums, but leave the education pedagogy to the experts.
Setting, particularly in primary school or having ability tables is very bad practice. Circle, triangle, square table in maths is actually making me cringe.

Pruella · 17/07/2022 20:10

Do you think I should be speaking to the school about streaming being bad practice? I was surprised to see it but it’s completely obvious in my son’s class. I generally find the school to be excellent but it sounds like they’re behind on this.

Pruella · 17/07/2022 20:11

Sorry my comment was to @Russell19

OoglyMoogly · 17/07/2022 20:21

We were streamed at my secondary school so top middle or bottom stream. You knew your stream.

At my daughter's school the sets were also clearly known by students. The homework schedule showed the sets as did the timetable.

If you don't know, maybe you should be more aware of what's happening in your child's education? So it's not a surprise at GCSE time. Just a thought.

ancientgran · 17/07/2022 20:26

carefullycourageous · 17/07/2022 17:27

How does being in a mixed ability group motivate the more academic child to improve? People who want to learn are motivated from within, they do not need to be surrounded by others at their level. Those children who are outstanding do not tread water waiting for the others to catch them up. Education is not about comeptition, it is about the individual wanting to learn.

What do you do if you have a bright child who doesn't want to learn. I had one of those, bone idle would be a generous description.

His disillusionment with education started when he was 4 and in reception. He came out of school one day with a new reading book and said, "Do you know what they do when you finish a book? They give you a harder one."

His attitude never changed although he is bright and has a first class honours degree. He reached an age where he realised if he wanted to earn a decent living he'd have to do something skilled that involved physical hard work or get qualifications for the sort of job he wanted so he worked but he never had the slightest desire to want to learn.

It was soul destroying for me as his mother and for his teachers. Fortunately his siblings weren't the same.

MinglingFlamingo · 17/07/2022 20:27

At the school I work at apart from core subjects at GCSE . The kids aren't setted by ability.

EV117 · 17/07/2022 20:36

"Teaching to the top" is the expectation, with differentiation by outcome (deepening the moment/extra challenge sprinkled in).The "all/most/a few" will do... model is no longer in favour. The "higher PowerPoint fits all" method means that teachers have high expectations of all pupils but I still see pupils left behind/unable to access it, as the scaffolding is not always there.

We’ve recently started this in our school for maths - an LA advisor was very keen on it. Sets had been in place for a long time - it wasn’t perfect but actually our maths progress at the the end of year 6 was always above average so it seemed an odd thing to pick on. I’m sure in many schools it works well to ‘teach to the top’ but we have an overwhelming amount of children with SEND, general low ability (we are a junior school, this is just how they arrive year on year in our area) and children who have severely fallen behind during lockdown. The gap between the most able and least able is massive and ‘teaching to the top’ means 50 to 60 percent of the class don’t have a clue what is going on during the input. It’s quite heart breaking to see how lost they sometimes look - whereas when we had sets the lower set I worked in were so animated and motivated. They struggled with maths but still enjoyed it and were very keen to challenge themselves. Now these same children just look disheartened and confused. Maybe it’s just teething problems - but I think this is just a recipe for widening the gap even further and making certain children feel like maths is just too hard and not for them. Before we moved to this method a boy from the higher set moved to our lower set - he was generally inattentive and misbehaving and it was clear that this stemmed from him struggling with the lesson content. He moved to our lower set and was like a changed person - turns out he quite enjoys maths when it’s not pitched miles beyond his grasp. He’s gone back to his old ways now unfortunately. Such a shame.