"He's in top sets for everything"

[isitanywonderthat]

How do people know this? Genuine question, I have 2 dc now in secondary school and I haven't a clue what art they are in for anything. Never have at secondary or primary. Never been given this information and never asked.

How do all the mners with DC in top sets have this information?

My kids knew which sets they were in at high school because I think the school were upfront about it. DD was borderline for maths and moved up to top set but she actually preferred being in second set because the top set teacher assumed the kids already knew how to do most of the stuff and the pace of the lesson was much quicker.
In primary I think they tried not to be obvious but a lot of times the kids worked it out for themselves , and a mum who was a teacher gave me an explanation of how they graded them
Circles - 1 sided shape (top set)
Triangles - 3 sided shape (next set)
Squares - 4 sides shape (next set)
Pentagon - 5 sided shape...and so on or
For colours
Red (3 letters) top set
Blue (4 letters) 2nd set
Green (5 letters) 3rd set
Orange/yellow/purple (6 letters) 4th set.

@Russell19 Very old school teaching. If this is still happening at your dcs school then they need some up to date training.

How should it be done? If you have a couple of kids in the class who can whizz through the lesson in 15 minutes, a large number who will cover the work in the hour of lesson time, a small number who can do the work but need support and one or two who can’t do the work even with support?

Sitting them with others in a similar situation seems sensible to me. How else would you do it? Mix them up? Does that not make life very lonely for the outliers?

Why do I need to know?

Did you mean to be so rude?

My GS, year 9 I think, did some end of year exams and told me if he didn't do well they'd move him down a set. Maybe that's how they know.

Kids aren't stupid, two of mine went to a primary school where the kids were on tables which were known by colours, so you sat on the blue table, or the red table or whatever. The kids knew which table was top and the order they went in. GS went to a primary where the tables were named after countries so you might be in Germany or Mexico. The kids knew the order they went in. I think teachers must try and avoid saying they are 1st 2nd or third but the kids work it out.

In Primary, not so obvious. For some classes it is, others not so.

Secondary, very obvious. Classes like maths, science and English are all in sets and they will be told. Our school has sets 1-5 and the kids know full well which set they're in. Work is given accordingly, as are exams and grades. In our school (I work in it) exams are in tiers and the year is seated according to these, with top sets always being on one side of the hall and moving down in tiers as you go along the hall. One glance tells you where kids are in ability.

Do they sit higher, intermediate or lower papers when they do tests and mocks? Can you see Maths1 or Maths2 anywhere on their timetables? Do they do double award science or triple? These aren't just clues, they're flat out answers. Failing that, ask the school and say you're interested. But the kids will know.

Ds2's school only sets for Maths and yes I do know what set he's in- he's told me and the teachers have told me at Parents' Evening.

Everything else is done on what they call a 'Flight Path' and each individual is assessed according to that.

I would only get concerned if ds2 fell below his own personal flight path.

I do agree that all the kids know which set they and all their classmates are in.

I can honestly say that I've never encouraged my children to compare themselves against others, just encouraged them to do their best.

So no, it's never occurred to me to grill them about what table they sat on at primary school.

I'm surprised by how many primary aged DC still seem to have "top tables". This is now considered poor practice.

There is a lack of transparency at DS's school on sets. I know which maths set he is in but it's not clear whether other subjects are streamed or not. Looking at his timetable, I suspect they are as his so called "professionally predicted" GCSE grades seem to correlate with the number on the timetable. So geography 1 on the timetable matches a higher predicted grade, and maths 4 a lower prediction. GCSEs are years away by the way so I take all of this with a pinch of salt. Gutted his English set is so low as it is a favourite subject!

Honestly it has always been obvious.
the children know. Even when I’m primary the teacher is trying to ‘hide it’ the children know very well who is going well or it. My dcs have always told me they were on the top table, lower set etc…. (And fur which subjects too!)
secondary was even more obvious.

now they are in 6th form and again they know. But what comes out clearly is that being in ‘top set’ doesn’t automatically means they are getting better grades. At least but at that level.

not what you asked but fwiw, bro g top set in primary doesn’t mean your dc will automatically do very well in
that subject.
dc1 was top set in maths inY6, carried on like this until 6th form and is very clear he hates maths and science and will do an essay subject at Uni (for which he was said he would get a vague 5~6 in GCSE English when he started secondary). Top sets are not everything.

It's usually pretty self-evident.

This is fair, but a lot of kids don't do their best and by knowing their sets you might find this out. You know your kids. If you find out they're in set 2 or 3, then great, they're doing their best and you're proud. You don't need them to be in top set. But what if you find out they're in set 5 or 6 and you know for a fact they can do better and they're not trying? Happens a LOT! Kids are in sets for the effort they put in as well as ability. There is NOTHING wrong with being in a low set. Nothing at all. Unless you know for a fact they are only in that set because they aren't putting the effort in. It's just good info to know, and you only get 1 shot at secondary school

I don't think they need encouragement, children are generally observant and interested. They are often really complimentary about other kids abilities so mind would say something like Mike is brilliant at maths or John plays the guitar like a professional.

So 2 of my kids were in every sports team and knew they were good at sport and one of mine couldn't catch, throw or kick a ball and knew they were no good at sport. No one needed to tell them. It was even obvious to me and I'm no good and not interested in sport just like one of my kids.

The kids know

sets at our primary were called triangles, squares, circles etc but the kids knew which was top set

mine were usually bottom set

not to worry

I’ve been told by school and the children are aware of what set they’re in too. There’s no need to ‘grill’ the children about it, it comes up naturally in conversations about school. The set they’re in generally determines what gcse papers they take too so not too difficult to work out e.g. top set science take triple science

Why is that? I tend to think if you are struggling with something like maths and they sit you next to the maths genius it would be really demoralising. Imagine sitting there doing your best, working hard and you manate to do 5 questions, you see the kids next to you has finished the whole sheet of 20 and is sitting waiting for the next thing. Then you get handed back your work and you got 2 right and he got all of them right. I'm not sure why that would be good for any child.

I'm not a teacher so I'm sure there must be a reason but I'd be interested to know what it is.

I don't know anyone who doesn't know this information. Classes are numbered and the child tells them. Why don't you ask school? It's odd not too in your situation! My child, in primary school, knew this for math, and told me.

ha, cheery, long ago 5yo S1 said to me that blue and yellow tables had much easier work than red and green.

Hm, can you think of why that might be, S1?
No! It's really unfair!

He may be super clever, but (rather like his mum) he's a bit thick in some ways

It's the easiest way to sort the differentiation though, surely?

@SimonaRazowska same at our old primary. DS was on the circle table which was bottom set. The more sides a shape had the higher the set. Kids knew and parents knew. It started from reception. Couldn't see any benefit in it. Pigeon holing children at a very young age when their development is not linear. I had teachers referring to DS as 'low ability' even when later on they knew he had dyslexia. Very ignorant.

Maybe Maths is the only class that sets the year group by ability? English might be mixed ability and then other classes might not set at all either. For example, when people say their kids are in top sets for everything, it's doubtful because there will be subjects that don't set (I'm thinking Home Ec, Technical etc). Kids can work it out too. I wouldn't worry too much about not knowing which 'set' they are in, it's more about knowing how to improve etc.

The sets aren't fixed though and kids move up and down, in and out. How else should you teach a class of 20-odd? Give them all the hard work and let them fail, or give them all the easy work and let the smarter one not learn anything new? Differentiated work is the norm and the best way to teach. Kids don't have to know what set they're in, not in primary, but they can often tell who's work is harder or easier than theirs

Ahhh right, now it's clear!

I've been sitting here scratching my head and thinking 'Well why wouldn't you just ask'?

But it's a little stealth dig at parents who do want to know what sets their kids are in, is it?

Loving the use of the word 'grilling' 😂😂

Although you're not crediting you kids with the intelligence I'm sure they posses, by making out they need to be 'grilled' to answer a very simple question.

The children should know what set they are in. I was in the top sets in my secondary for all lessons, the school was divided into 6 sets, the top 3 were for the higher learners and the bottom 3 were for the children who needed more support.
All of the students knew what sets they were in.