Are American schooling expectations in films the same in real life?

[Offandonagain]

I find that Typically in American high school type films such as She’s all that, 10 things, fresh Prince, American pie, Spider-Man etc there is a big emphasis on going to college after school…. Grades, scholarships, summer schools, locations.

It seems to be a bigger deal that the UK, and you’re a failure if you don’t go. Hope true is this though?

Also, are us unis better both academically and socially than uk ones?… not sure if that question can be answered

I LOVE this thread.

Packed full of interesting perspectives, and LOADS of things on each side of the pond that I did not know.

Yes I’m enjoying reading this thread too.

I do think we specialise much too early in England/Wales. Especially as when applying for the very competitive courses you often need to link your extra curricular activities and work experiences to the subject you’re applying for. and also baring in mind that mid teens is a terrible age for so many children - not always ideal for making sound life choices! Obviously this is only my experience, but at my school the kids at school who went on to do medicine all knew that’s what they were aiming for by the age of 14 at least. I’m sure it’s similar in the US in that lots of children know that’s this is their plan early on, but the system there does seem like it allows more flexibility to chose medicine at a later stage.

I'm wondering what the pupil buy-in for all these extra curricular activities is like in the US? (I guess I’m thinking middle class suburbia here). Is it something they do under duress? As a status thing? Actively take part in/avoid because it’s cool to do that?
Again looking back at my own experiences in England, which are now very dated, but being involved in the wider school life other than in a sports team was generally a thing that people got teased for. Which is obviously a shame.

Poster child for American middle-class suburbia here. In my experience, extracurricular participation for most of my peers was a mix of "this is something I'd do anyway" (e.g., I loved track and theater, so I was happy to participate whether it would have helped my university prospects or not) as well as "I know I should do XYZ activity so it will look good on my transcript" (e.g., I ran for/was elected to a lot of leadership positions in the clubs I was involved with under the common sense understanding that it would look good to prospective universities).

My own personal experience, and I know that of most of my fellow students at the elite liberal arts university I ended up attending, was that it wasn't in any way "uncool" to do extracurriculars. Some were more "cool" than others - playing (American) football was always going to be "cooler" than playing the tuba in the marching band - but there was not, in my setting, a big scene of sneering at others for what we chose to do. Participating was cool. Joining was cool.

Of course, the savvy kids knew they had to participate in something in order to have a shot at the college of their choice. But most folks picked something they naturally gravitated towards anyway.

@AmigoDog , to more specifically answer one of your questions: no, I never observed any teasing for participating in wider school life. Really, the lowest social status kids were the ones who didn't participate in ANYTHING. It was perceived that they thought they were (literally) "too cool for school" (which ironically made them very uncool) or that there must be something "wrong" with them if they couldn't find anything they wanted to do.

Sports, theater, competitive spelling team (yes, real, and no, not hugely dorky), robotics team, Spanish club, there was so much to pick from, could you really not find ANYWHERE to fit in? That was more the perception.

@AmigoDog I have a DS in an American High School and in my experience EVERY student does a sport or activity (robotics, debate, mock trail etc). They don't seem to do it under duress, it's just an accepted part of the childhood / teenage years.
It's not seen as geeky or nerdy, it would be more unusual to come across a kid that goes home at 3pm everyday and is not involved in anything. At my DS's High School, most kids are on campus until at least 5pm training or playing even though classes finish at 3pm.
The same goes for the volunteering and community service aspect. It's ingrained in them from an early age and most schools that I've encountered offer many different opportunities for the students to get involved at all ages with internal and external charities and organizations.

I wouldn't say American universities are a better standard. I attended a red brick uni in England but a few of us took intercalated years at US equivalent universities eg UCLA, Brown etc doing our equivalent degree over there for a year. The USA unis level of teaching felt inferior to ours - classes were so basic we were all getting test scores >95% despite partying far more than we did at home. I think it's because they focus on breadth of study over depth of study in undergrad because they expect you to get depth in post grad whereas in the U.K. by the end of undergrad you're equipped to go straight into the workplace in a high paying profession.

The great thing was I was a 2:1 student before going to the states but the year in UCLA pulled up my mark to a high 1st for graduation.

Cross posted with @HyacinthsHydrangeas but seems like we have pretty much the same experience with regards to the extra curriculars!

I don’t understand the comment about the Scottish system being broader. Maybe once, but not any more. My DB’s kids are doing 9-10 GCSEs vs 7 Nat 5s at my DCS school (and a lot of schools only do 6). As I understand it, Nat 5s are lower than GCSEs so it seems to me that in England they do broader better for longer, particularly compared to my DCs school where a lot of kids go to college after S4 so that lower level of broader education is the widest exposure they get.

Good shout by @BackToWhereItAllBegan about the volunteering! I forgot about that. My experience was also that volunteering or being involved in charity work was also a standard/expected part of the high school experience.

@Fenella123 I don't know about the rest of the western world but l certainly found that the bar was set lower for achievement in the US. My averagely performing DD was identified as gifted and talented when at school in the US and placed in specific G&T classes where she ranked highly. From what I can gather this was mainly down to her results achieved during their many multiple choice tests that they did which placed her in the 5th percentile. Once back in the UK she was once again achieving perfectly respectable but just average marks.

Overall I prefer the US education system as they aren't forced to narrow down their subjects at a very early age and can have a much broader education.

My American son went to an American University for two years and then transferred to one in the UK for another two years.

From what he told me UK Universities are not as well rounded as American ones, in other words in the UK they concentrate more on the subject you are majoring in. Here they have to be proficient at pretty much everything to get a degree. At his UK university he was surprised when another student told him she was majoring in law and would get her a degree in law after three years of regular University. Here in the US to become a lawyer, you go to University for four years, and after you get your BS or BA you then apply to a law school, which, if you are accepted, takes another three years to get a law degree. Then you have to pass your state's bar exam.

He said in the UK University is easier. Also we call university 'college' a lot of the time or even just 'school'.

@Skelligsfeathers
Bog standard graduating high school is the equivalent of gcses. The first two years of ' college' is spent taking general education classes that bring you up to the level that u.k kids are at after taking a''levels.

There is no such thing as 'bog standard graduating from high school' in the US.
High school graduation is a matter of passing the required number of credit courses. A student who passes all the classes required by the state at general level, plus all the classes required by the local school district graduates high school. So does the student who enters high school taking BC calculus (AP), and proceeds to take all the required coursework in academic disciplines at honours or AP level, passing drivers ed, health, civics, consumer education, swimming, and whatever other courses are mandated in his or her state and high school district.

Students who go to selective, highly selective, or extremely selective universities (including state universities - the state vs private school distinction in British schools does not apply to state vs private universities in the US) generally are expected to do core coursework, which is sometimes called general education requirements.

Core coursework consists of a prescribed courses in specific disciplines. The idea behind it is that students will share a similar level of fluency in areas that are considered important for an understanding of the world, where it has been, and where it is going. Here's an example:
college.uchicago.edu/academics/core-curriculum

I can assure you that highly selective universities are not bringing their students up to A level standard

...whereas in the U.K. by the end of undergrad you're equipped to go straight into the workplace in a high paying profession.

This is not really a statement that stands up well to examination.

Thanks to the broad range of subjects they are expected to study, American graduates can easily move into areas you might not immediately associate with their major, and even so, many majors will get you a good job upon graduation. A graduate with a history degree could get a job in finance because of the heavy STEM coursework required for graduation from most selective universities.

My two oldest DDs went straight from university into career track work. DS is currently in med school, one younger DD will go to grad school after she graduates this coming academic year, and youngest DD has still to declare a major but will probably end up pursuing a career in news production upon graduation.

I was an international college counselor helping kids apply to unis/colleges in the UK and USA.( + Canada).

The UK and US systems are very different. Of course UK students should be at a high level of knowledge in specialized areas if they only take 3 subjects for two years. ts true that a lot of American colleges (except the most selective) will let UK students skip a year and enter as a Sophomore in college with good A levels or the International Baccalaureate Diploma BUT it does depend on the major they are applying for.

My two eldest kids are at a very competitive big public (state) university. My eldest had to compete again at university as a Sophomore to get into her major: Psychology. The average GPA at university for acceptance into her major was 3.8 (A-). She has a 4.0 (straight A) but also had to apply with an essay and an interview. So there can be constant sorting and winnowing at some of the top schools. She had to take higher level math & statistics as required classes at uni to even apply. So you need to be hard working, still juggling many subjects at university level. She also had 4 years of a foreign language (German) from high school and took a minor in German at university too.

It’s crazy that professions such as mechanics or builders aren’t valued as decent jobs/careers. I think vocational subjects are valued more in the UK

Again, not really. With the high cost of university attendance, apprenticeships are increasingly seen as very attractive pathways to financial security.

Many high schools partner with local community colleges (junior colleges, which offer two year associates degrees or certificates and from which you can transfer to a four year university if you wish) to provide community college credit toward more vocational coursework.

Here are some vocational course offerings from a local high school, which hosts an annual apprenticeship expo and offers guidance and resources plus contacts within the community for students seeking apprenticeships:

Introduction to Health Careers and Medical Terminology
Introduction to Patient Care Skills
Fundamentals of Nursing - includes 50 hours of work experience at a local nursing home. students are equipped to take the state Nurse Assistant exam.
Principles of Engineering
Introduction to Engineering Design
Civil Engineering and Architecture
Digital Electronics
Engineering Design and Development
Computer Integrated Manufacturing
Introduction to Automotive Technology
Advanced Automotive Technology
Automotive Capstone (individual project)
Introduction to Woodworking
As an example of a course description:
Students will complete various projects to learn and apply home remodeling skills such as case and cabinet construction. Proper and safe use of hand tools and power woodworking machinery is emphasized. Computer Aided Design (CAD) and Computer Numerical Control (CNC) are also utilized. Students may earn 4.0 Hours of Dual Credit for [Community] College’s Fabrication Processes course.
Advanced Woodworking
Woodworking Capstone (individual project)
Barbering - 2 year coursework, leading to state professional license qualification
Cosmetology - 2-year coursework, leading to state professional license qualification
Fitness and Foods
Fashion Merchandising
Clothing construction
Housing and Interior Design
Child development
Mini restaurant
Baking and Pastry - dual credit with local community college
Culinary Arts - dual community college credit
Applied
Keyboarding/Introductory Microsoft Office
Computer Applications
Video Game and Multimedia Development
Website Development
Courses involving working in the community for ten hours per week, mentoring, and observation of progress by teacher
Radio/Sound Production
Television Production

www.newtrier.k12.il.us/Page/1846
Vocational offerings from a high school in the suburbs of a big midwest city.

Students at my local high school are equipped with an individual four year plan which is developed based on their placement test. Students do not advance through the four years of high school year by year with their peers as in a British secondary school. Classes are taken according to interest and at a level commensurate with ability/potential, with final destination of the student in mind, whatever that may be.

Another voice of agreement on extra curriculars and that was far and away my favourite thing about school in the States.
I have to admit, for me that went hand in hand with school being much easier than in the UK - in the UK Id had to spend a significant amount of time on homework but in the States I could easily scribble it off on the bus to a match or during a study hall so it didn’t matter that I wasn’t getting home til 6 (v 4.30 in the UK) And that did include AP classes.

I think the early specialisation in the UK system is a shame, I would have loved to go to college in the States but it was just so expensive.

@BlodynGwyn your son is wrong. You can't become a lawyer ie practice as a solicitor with just a university law degree in the U.K.
In order to practice law you have to pass a professional qualification (the LPC) and complete a training contract (working across multiple seats/types of law) in a law firm. Training contracts are so competitive that most (especially those who haven't graduated from Oxford/Cambridge/a red brick) will also have to work as a paralegal for years before being offered a training contract.

@BackToWhereItAllBegan
@HyacinthsHydrangeas
Thank you. I wish our schools were more like that here.

@mathanxiety you've proved my point exactly - all of your children have had to go on to postgraduate study in order to go into a high paying field after university. In the U.K. a first class /second class upper student could go straight to working as a banker earning 6 figures (many from my graduating class did).

Do you know anyone in the US that goes straight into 6-figure corporate employment immediately after completing undergrad?

Look, it's not a dig. It's more a comment on the fact US undergrad focuses on breadth of study over depth as such on graduation the students don't have enough experience in a specific field to warrant high salaries so they go to postgraduate university to get their depth.

Yes, but the vast majority of people I know here expect their kids to go to university.
Jeez @RebOrHon a couple of high profile cases - and you don't think similar happens here?
SATs are not tests you really study for - they are not at all like exams here. They are just benchmark tests.
@Skelligsfeathers that's just not true.
The great thing about the American education is the broader subjects and that it is course based assessment. No having to narrow your choices to three subjects.
University/ college is four years there, and there are a huge variety of levels of admitting criteria. But about half that start at higher education drop out - they either don't like the course, get a job, whatever (don't know the stat gif dropping out here).
Vocational colleges (college is always after high school) exist too.
State schools vary in quality just like they do here.

I'm wondering what the pupil buy-in for all these extra curricular activities is like in the US? (I guess I’m thinking middle class suburbia here). Is it something they do under duress? As a status thing? Actively take part in/avoid because it’s cool to do that?
Again looking back at my own experiences in England, which are now very dated, but being involved in the wider school life other than in a sports team was generally a thing that people got teased for. Which is obviously a shame.

In my observation, participation to the max is the norm in my local high school. There are over 70 clubs and activities to choose from, as well as sports. All clubs are mentored by teachers and sports coached by teachers, who earn a very decent annual service for the extra work.

It is very much a 'joiner upper' society, with very little by way of tall poppy syndrome. Some students are motivated by the need to show a raft of extra curriculars for the purposes of application to private universities, and some are participating in order to build up a portfolio for entry to drama or dance school, while some are hoping to secure an NCAA sports scholarship, but the majority are doing it because of genuine interest or because someone they fancy is doing it.

As HyacinthsHydrangeas says, the odd kids are the ones not participating. Volunteering is a big draw too, and highly encouraged.

Gosh there is a lot of misinformation on this thread.

Yes, most kids expect to go to university.They may not all aspire to Ivy League as films might lead you to believe; I’d say the vast majority aim for a state school where they can get in-state tuition and a decent education from a university that’s nationally recognizable (i.e., not tiny private colleges). Schools bring in reps from different universities beginning in sophomore year, and you begin taking the exams and sending applications from junior year. Gap years are not nearly as much of a thing in the US.

Also, it is completely untrue that US high school is at the level of UK gsces. It definitely depends on the school, but many kids take AP classes in the subjects where they excel, and what’s more, the course offering churns out students who are more academically well-rounded than their UK counterparts who graduate with just 3 A levels and completely abandon other subjects. American AP classes actually count for university credit, so you could theoretically test out of an entire year (or more) of university with high school coursework (I know, because I did).

In the US there is a lot more focus on rote-learning, multiple-choice testing, survey work and busywork, which is good at keeping students working and focused, but also tends to inhibit independent learning and research, as well as analytical and critical skills.

That's rather a broad and sweeping statement.

Has it been your observation that American students fall flat on their faces when they get to the Ivy League, Stanford, University of Chicago, MIT, Cal Tech, etc?

However, along the way you have significantly more exposure to other subjects, which, at its best, promotes lateral thinking, creativity, and curiosity

This wasn’t my experience in the 90’s. I participated in an exchange programme and spent a year in an American college. I didn’t find any of the students particularly curious or creative as a result of the liberal arts system. In fact the style of teaching was very similar to school in that it was a bit spoon fed. I had some issues with my class timetable and ended up having to take a history class to get enough credits for my year. I wouldn’t expect to walk into a subject I hadn’t studied in my third year and keep up but I didn’t have any major issues. ( I enjoyed it and the teacher was great ). I’m not saying U.K. universities are better but I don’t think having to study religious education as a freshman is going to make you more curious or creative as an undergraduate.

It's not dissimilar in many schools in the U.K. in more privileged areas. My DD's grew up saying when and where they went to university, they went to summer classes when they were younger (I was working but I picked educational programmes instead of colour and play type provision) and both did the Cambridge summer school at 16. The university's vary a lot in the USA, more than in the U.K. and you can pick up credits over an extended period from multiple institutions. Many employers thus require a masters because a degree isn't as "hard" I'm told (used to live there but moved back) high school diploma isn't as high level as a levels hence 4 year degrees but it's more diverse in subjects, my American friends who live in the U.K. say it's not much harder than GCSEs