Minor dd friend issue - how would you handle?

[FloatingthroughSpace]

Dd coming to the end of year 7.

She has a new friend this year who is a lovely person. She comes round after school at least once a week and stays for tea and this is fine. Dd has never been to her house except to drop friend's bag off on the way to ours. She (friend) is youngest of 4 girls and DD says their house is small and untidy and there's stuff everywhere so it's easier to come to ours to play. I have met Dad but never Mum and Dad does most of the communicating (well, all) so I am inferring that Mum may be fragile in some way.

The minor issue is around boundaries. When she comes to ours, she opens the fridge and helps herself to things. She asks for money so she and DD can go to the shop for sweets. I fund them both every time. And she picks up Dd's diary and reads it, which DD says she doesn't know how to make her stop.

In every other way she's delightful. Kind, funny, thoughtful etc. I wonder if it's a youngest child in a bunch of girls thing.

I have said that I would prefer if she asked before taking stuff from the fridge, to no effect - she is just less obvious about it! Thing is I am really happy for her and DD to hang out at ours and don't want to make her feel unwelcome. And Dd's diary...how to handle? At the minute she is hiding it while asking Friend (we can call her Rosie) to wait outside her room so she can get changed. But long term, Rosie needs to learn that reading other's diaries is not on.

Our house is an ordinary semi detached house btw, we don't live in a mansion and are not rich. It is a bit bigger than Rosie's though.

Any ideas?

These things are not minor! Reading someone's diary is a gross violation of privacy. Taking food from the fridge without asking shows entitlement and doing it sneakily is deceptive and dishonest behaviour. There is a great opportunity to show your daughter what a boundary is... the key thing to remember is a true boundary has a consequence when it is violated.

Have a talk to your daughter about how her privacy is important and needs to be respected. (And you might discuss how a 'friend' who doesn't respect her wishes and her privacy is not a good friend) Decide on a plan with your daughter, that if her friend is reading her diary or doing something disrespectful, that she comes to tell you immediately. You then bring the visit to an end. Some people like to be direct and explain, 'Rosie, if you look at Jane's diary, you're not welcome to stay here, so I'm going to take you home now' but an equally effective technique is to breezily announce 'I'm sorry Rosie, I just realised we have something we need to do as a family, so I'm going to take you home now.' This technique is effective because it is less likely to embarass your daughter or create the possibility of this child arguing back or making excuses, it also avoids the possibility of needing to talk about this with the girl's parents, which is entirely unnecessary. What is most important is that there is a consequence for the boundary violation.

The same rule applies to taking food out of the fridge.... if you suspect this has happened you can just cheerfully announce you forgot you have some family tasks you need to do, and so it is time to take your visitor home. It's your house and your rules, so you don't need to even be 100% she did take the food - if you feel something is off, then visiting time is over. It doesn't matter if it happens within the first 5 minutes of the visit, just be consistent and apply the consequence. If you speak in a cheerful and unfussed manner but are decisive and act swiftly this child will probably learn very quickly to adjust her behavior.

As for giving a visitor money - simply reply 'I'm sorry dear, not today', and move on to the next thing. This shows your daughter how to politely say 'no' to someone.

Also, rates of intimate partner violence are higher than you might guess. A mother who appears 'fragile' may appear so because she is experiencing emotional or psychological abuse from her partner, and this little girl is clearly learning entitled, disrespectful and deceptive behavior from someone in her life. If you hold some boundaries with her she will also benefit from the experience of learning to treat your daughter and you with respect. But most importantly you are showing your daughter how to stick up for herself.

Preface all everything with "In this house ...". So "In this house children ask permission before taking food", or "In this house we respect everybody's privacy and would not read/look at/handle their personal property like diaries".

If she does it again then put in location boundaries. "You read DD's diary after you were told not to, so now you are not allowed to go upstairs", "You took food without asking so now you can only play with DD in the garden and not in the house". I used to do this with neighbour kids when the DC were small. I was very strict about keeping the side gate closed because the dog would get out and he has no road sense. I told them all that if the side gate was left open again then they would not be allowed at my house for a week, all of them regardless of who had left it open, then I followed through. It only took two bans of a week before they magically remembered to close the gate after them every time.

Kids don't mind being told the house rules so long as it's clear for them to follow, don't expect them to get hints that's just too confusing for them.

Put the diary away someone safe. That should have happened more than once.

if someone asks you for money for sweets, say no!

Tell her not to help herself to things from the fridge.

Man up!

My first thought was that this girl was hungry! Maybe not getting great food options at home.

That’s what I was going to say. Stop funding all requests. Be direct and forceful about food stealing. Lock the diary up.

It IS a reciprocal friendship - they get along great. She isn't a freeloader. Eg when dd was ill in hospital she sent a home made card unbidden.

I suppose I am asking for help in how to navigate parenting differences. I guess it's right that I am being a doormat and need to practice assertiveness.

Who is instigating all the playdates? Are you the one who texts the dad to arrange these? Has the little girl ever even bought around a bag of jellies for to share with your daughter or is it the expectation that you will always provide what she wants?

I guess it's right that I am being a doormat and need to practice assertiveness.

Yes, you really do. It's a terrible example you are setting for your daughter.

You’re sending your dd a terrible message about letting people trample all over her boundaries.

I would stop funding her when she asks for money for sweets. Simply say “it’s really not polite to ask for money you will need to speak to your parents if you want to go to the shop”

with regards to helping herself every time you catch her “Rosie I’ve asked you not to just help yourself to things in my house it’s not polite I’m afraid you’re going to have to go home now. Please remember not to do this when you come next time”

if she carries on then “sorry Rosie you and Xx will have to play outside I can’t have you helping yourself to things and trying to read xx’s diary anymore or asking for money. We love having you over but I can’t keep reminding you not to do these things”

You are being way too much of a pushover. Really tell her she can't open the fridge and help herself and tell her it's rude to ask for money etc. You are modeling 'people pleasing' to your daughter and you need to stop.

Our house was ways the house all the kids came to but I had strict rules. I made kids that visited regularly say please and thank you and I made them help tidy up. They were happy to because our house was fun and because they knew I meant it.

I never minded if play dates weren't reciprocal - there are all sorts of reasons some kids can't have friends over. You just have to see some of the Mumsnet threads where posters say they can't possibly have any visitors in their houses.

I suppose I am asking for help in how to navigate parenting differences.

The great thing is, you don’t need to ‘navigate parenting differences’ because there’s no one to negotiate with. In your house, you are the voice of parental authority. What happens in anyone else’s house is entirely irrelevant (as I am happy to inform cheeky wotsits who try that line on me!)

As everyone else has said you need to set some boundaries. Yes, it would be easier if you had done this from the start but that doesn’t mean it’s too late. I have never let visiting kids help themselves from fridge/cupboard as that is not what we do in our house. “Please don’t help yourself from the fridge, that is not what we do in this house, if you want something you need to ask” and “sorry, I am not giving you money for sweets, you need to ask your parents for sweet money” are both perfectly reasonable things to say to a visiting child. If she ignores you and heads to the fridge stop her or ask her to put what she has taken back. Kids don’t really do subtlety. I would be more annoyed about the diary tbh as to me that indicates a kid who will do what she wants even if it upsets others. Make sure it is not in sight.

To me it sounds like the friend maybe has to look after herself more than your DD? As the youngest of 4 she also probably copies older siblings, maybe they all get their own food.
As others have said state the rules to both of them. No money for sweets today. Make a sandwich if you’re hungry etc..
And your DD could easily lick away or hide her diary.

Think of it this way, you are doing that girl no favours by letting her ride roughshod all over you and your daughter. A lot of people will be really horrible to her if she acts like that in their house. She's obviously not being taught how to behave in other people's houses, for whatever reason.

I don't think a visiting child should be asking for something from the fridge. Presumably you've offered her a drink and she's having her tea there. Why should she be asking for food? I think she is really testing your boundaries.

The kindest thing you can do is teach her how to behave.

As far as the diary is concerned then I think that and anything else that's private should be kept in your room. That room should be completely out of bounds.

Who is instigating all the playdates? Are you the one who texts the dad to arrange these? Has the little girl ever even bought around a bag of jellies for to share with your daughter....?

They're twelve, or very nearly twelve. They don't have 'playdates' instigated by parents at that age.

My DD made a friend like this at age 9. Friend visited every weekend from Friday after school until Monday morning when I drove them both to school. Never reciprocated because friend's mother "worked weekends". This lasted until they graduated at age 18. (Friend's story: No father, mother NC with grandparents, mother's weekend job was in a bar and after work she either brought a patron home to continue drinking or went out partying and never came home at all.)
I decided to raise Friend. Taught her how to cook, how to wash her school uniforms, helped with her homework, etc. At the end of eight years helped her fill out job applications and sent her out into the world. Two years later I went to her wedding (on the beach) and two years after that to her funeral when she died of an undetected heart abnormality. I never thought of it as a waste of time. Ten years on and DD and I still talk about, "remember when we ate out and Friend tried calamari and liked it until you told her what it was? Remember the Christmas Friend baked a Red Velvet cake and it was pink?"

Do some good for your DD's friend. You don't know what it might mean to her.

You don't need to navigate "parenting differences" as you are not her parent.

You just need to let her know when she crosses your boundaries. Telling someone to not help themselves to your fridge is not a parenting difference - it is absolutely fine for her to help herself to her own fridge in her home, she might have been given permission to help herself to family/friends fridges in their homes.

Next time it happens close the fridge door, tell her in your home guests ask, you have asked her twice not to do it and if it happens again she will be asked to leave, then follow through. Just be matter of fact, don't be apologetic.

@GeorgiaGirl52 that is a beautiful and tragic story.

i think this is a simple situation. No need to make the girl stay in the garden, or report to the safeguarding lead at school! Just her to stop asking for money as it is not polite, and tell her you’re glad she feels welcome in the house but your dd asks before she helps herself to food, and you would like her to do the same. In the long run if her home life is not great, she will likely appreciate the firmer boundaries and being welcome in your home.

regarding the diary you need to train your dd to stand up for herself and tell her not to read the diary. If friend doesn’t respect the boundaries then next time she comes dd tells friend she wants to hang out in the living room because she doesn’t want friend reading her diary. My dd did this with a friend who constantly went through all her stuff and broke things, messed the room up - I let my dd ban the friend from her room for a period of time. Friend did eventually stop (although remained a nightmare in other ways and is no longer a friend!)

Diary needs to go somewhere safe.

"Get your snouts out of the fridge girls,wait until dinner time!"

" I haven't got any change for the shop."

Sorted.

They are secondary school. She just comes home with DD, pausing to drop her stuff off at her house (10 min walk away)

According to the OP!

Yes we don't arrange playdates as secondary school age - except in holidays or special trips.

That's right they drop her stuff en route and it's a few mins nearer school than our house.

The first time one of DS's friends came for tea (about year 4), they walked into the house, and friend opened the fridge and took out a yoghurt.
I asked her what she was doing, then told her that in our house, children don't help themselves from the fridge, and that I would provide a snack, she was a little surprised, but never did it again in all her visits.

@GeorgiaGirl52
Such a sad story.

I don't feel there is serious neglect or that Rosie is exceptionally hungry. It's more that she is doing what happens at home - helping herself from fridge and presumably as youngest of 4 girls, perhaps not expecting much privacy or respecting it very well.

I will "man up" and be more assertive about expectations in my home. Been a wake-up call, thanks.

She’s in year 7 so quite old enough to know that there are different rules in different people’s houses.

She should know she is pushing boundaries with you and your dd.

So next time she comes you must say to them both “Sarah Sophie I need to tell you not to just help yourselves to stuff in the fridge as I may need it for lunch/dinner/tea/supper today/later this week. You need to ask me first.” Smile and say it with a friendly but firm tone of voice.

If she does it again then you can ask her if she forget what you said and follow up with something like “I need to to understand that you can’t just go in my fridge like that without asking me. Last week I didn’t have enough eg ham for my work lunch (or something similar) and I was quite annoyed so I don’t want to make things awkward or stop you coming here but you need to understand this”.

You could coach your dd in a role play conversation about her diary rather than hiding it

eg please don’t read my diary it’s private
Or I enjoy your company but it makes me feel upset you don’t respect my privacy