"You can argue and say that I'm pro-choice all you want..."

yourestandingonmyneck · 2022-06-26T22:40:18+00:00

Could somebody please explain this quote that's going around on social media? It lists examples of women who need an abortion for various reasons. And then at the end says "You can argue and say that I'm pro choice all you like. But the truth is I am pro life. Pro womens lives." I don't really get it? It is being shared by people who are disappointed in the reversal of Roe vs Wade and who are presumably pro-choice.....so I don't really understand the last paragraph which seems to be denying this? I am pro choice. And I openly say I'm pro choice. I wouldn't argue with somebody about that and say "you can say I'm pro choice all you like but...". Because I just am pro-choice. There's no "but" about it. Is it just clumsily worded? It reads to me like pro choice is a bad thing and the writer is attempting to distance them self from it? Also the list of women who should be entitled to an abortion....well, yes, obviously, but what about women who just don't want a child and fell pregnant by mistake? It's every womans right to choose, not just the women in the examples who are in awful situations but are actually in the minority of people who have abortions. I saw this once or twice in the last few weeks and thought it was just a bit clumsy. But I'm just seeing it all over the place now and I find it a bit odd that it seems to have been adopted as the go-to thing to share in support of the current abortion issue?

AnneLovesGilbert · 26/06/2022 23:42

I haven’t seen it before but is it arewnpe

fucketyfuckwit · 26/06/2022 23:44

Oh I shared this on FB, maybe I didn't read it closely enough. I'm very pro choice!

AnneLovesGilbert · 26/06/2022 23:44

I haven’t seen that before but is it attempting to challenge the pro choice vs pro life language? The latter I find deeply disingenuous, inaccurate and annoying as fuck. I’m pro women’s lives and them not being sacrificed due to outrageous restrictions on their necessary healthcare. Is that the same sort of thing?

CountessOfSponheim · 26/06/2022 23:45

It's taking the "anti-abortion = pro-life" idea and subverting it into "pro-choice = pro-life", looking at life as a whole.

Boating123 · 26/06/2022 23:49

I guess if the slogan 'pro life' is more powerful/better than 'pro choice'.

Pro choice sounds like its not a big deal - like choosing what jam to eat. It also doesn't sound very caring.

The new slogan - I'm pro life - the woman's life shows there is a caring element to the stance. It's not cold and clinical IMO.

ErrolTheDragon · 26/06/2022 23:52

Is it riposte to those opposed to women's rights think the label 'pro life' gives them the moral high ground over people who are in their eyes merely 'pro choice'? When actually they're not pro-womens-lives?

A ban on abortion will inevitably kill women, that's the point.

Original poster

yourestandingonmyneck · 26/06/2022 23:55

ErrolTheDragon · 26/06/2022 23:52

Is it riposte to those opposed to women's rights think the label 'pro life' gives them the moral high ground over people who are in their eyes merely 'pro choice'? When actually they're not pro-womens-lives?

A ban on abortion will inevitably kill women, that's the point.

"A ban on abortion will inevitably kill women, that's the point."

Ah, ok, I see.

I thought it was just being clumsy and trying to water down "pro-choice" to make it more palatable.

In that case I see what it's trying to do....But I didn't pick up on that.

I do still feel that the list of women and their reasons isn't great though. A lot of those reasons are medical / trauma related and just not the case for the majority of abortions. Really the reasons are nobodies business at all.

OP posts:

KilmordenCastle · 27/06/2022 00:05

Also the list of women who should be entitled to an abortion....well, yes, obviously, but what about women who just don't want a child and fell pregnant by mistake? It's every womans right to choose, not just the women in the examples who are in awful situations but are actually in the minority of people who have abortions

I've seen this post quite a few times on fb and I agree that there should be a mention of a woman that just doesn't want to have a baby. It kind of feels like it's been purposefully left out because it is somehow wrong, which isn't completely pro choice at all.

If I were to get pregnant now I would terminate. I'm in a very happy marriage, we have two young dc's already, our house is big enough for another child and we could just about afford another one (though it would be a struggle). On paper we have a perfect set up for another child, but I don't want one, so I would terminate. I don't want to be pregnant again, to put my body through carrying another baby, to look at the aftermath in the mirror and cry because I don't know if I'll be able to get anything that resembles my body back this time. I don't want to go back to square one with night feeds, sleep deprivation and nappies. I don't want to have another maternity leave followed by the stress of juggling childcare with work. I don't want to deal with the terrible two's and potty training all over again. I don't want any of that and I have a coil to prevent it from happening. But if the coil fails then I would terminate.

I definitely think that, if it were to happen, a few people that I know (who claim to be pro choice) would judge me for my reasons if I told them.

Original poster

yourestandingonmyneck · 27/06/2022 00:09

@KilmordenCastle yes, exactly. Going through pregnancy and childbirth is a massive thing. Nobody should have to justify their reasons for choosing not to.

And nobody gets an abortion for a laugh. It's an unfortunate position to end up in, and the reasons for ending up there are really nobodies business.

OP posts:

ErrolTheDragon · 27/06/2022 00:12

You're quite right, of course.
Pro womens lives, for each women to be in control of.

ChiselandBits · 27/06/2022 06:56

As a pp said it's about claiming back the word 'life', but it's focusing on the woman's life. If you're anti pro life that would suggest you're 'pro death' or 'pro murdering babies' which is certainly the way those in favour of the ruling paint it.

I did this debate with my students when the leak happened a few months back and they just couldn't get past the idea that the pro life people are ultimately forcing their beliefs on others if abortion is unavailable whereas if it IS available, no one forces you to have one. They're very 'you do you ' and even those who believe life begins at conception could still appreciate that that was a belief and no more valid than those who think it's a clump of cells til X weeks. Shame fully grown adults can't display the same thinking skills.

VikingVolva · 27/06/2022 07:00

It's an attack based on the slogans currently in use in the USA

Those who are in favour of readily available abortion are saying they are 'pro-life' because that's the slogan of those who seek to restrict it.

They are trying to seize the terms, an as this thread shows, it's not really working, except possibly within the US. OTOH, it's not aimed beyond US

TheOnlyLivingBoyInNewCross · 27/06/2022 07:07

I have to say, I think the final paragraph is extremely clear in terms of the point that’s being made about how narrow the definition of the word ‘life’ is when used by those who are arguing for the ban on abortions.

tobi21 · 27/06/2022 07:10

I think it's also trying to shut down the "life begins at conception" argument. Maybe not too successfully

RoseAndRose · 27/06/2022 07:15

What is the maternal death rate in US?

(Assuming this is about actual life, not quality of life)

Discovereads · 27/06/2022 07:16

They’re essentially saying they’re pro choice because it saves womens lives, which is pro-life for womens lives.

Their examples are a bit batshit though. One is of an ectopic pregnancy and surgery for that has never been considered an abortion (egg never leaves Fallopian tube). Another is of a miscarriage (no heartbeat at scan) and the medication or surgery for that has never been considered an abortion. So it’s disingenuous to imply an abortion ban endangers the lives of women with ectopic pregnancies and miscarriages.

I agree listing examples weakens the “I’m pro choice” argument because they’re slanted towards the few exceptions some pro-lifers will have…as in ban abortion except for rape, incest, extreme youth. And, it may have been cut off but the #1 reason why an abortion ban (pro life) kills women is because of back street black market abortions which will return and do carry a high risk of death.

RoseAndRose · 27/06/2022 07:28

BTW - that was a genuine question - not trying to make a point, but realise that anything might be taken as such esp when decision is so damned fresh)

ErrolTheDragon · 27/06/2022 07:37

Their examples are a bit batshit though. One is of an ectopic pregnancy and surgery for that has never been considered an abortion (egg never leaves Fallopian tube). Another is of a miscarriage (no heartbeat at scan) and the medication or surgery for that has never been considered an abortion. So it’s disingenuous to imply an abortion ban endangers the lives of women with ectopic pregnancies and miscarriages.

Unfortunately you're wrong about those 'nevers'. The examples are 'batshit' because there is a truly batshit wing among the people who just seem to see women as breeders.

In Ohio there were moves to legislate for 'reimplantation' surgery ... despite the small detail that it doesn't exist.

blogs.bmj.com/bmj/2019/12/17/the-myth-of-ectopic-pregnancy-transplantation/

dollybird · 27/06/2022 07:37

Discovereads · 27/06/2022 07:16

They’re essentially saying they’re pro choice because it saves womens lives, which is pro-life for womens lives.

Their examples are a bit batshit though. One is of an ectopic pregnancy and surgery for that has never been considered an abortion (egg never leaves Fallopian tube). Another is of a miscarriage (no heartbeat at scan) and the medication or surgery for that has never been considered an abortion. So it’s disingenuous to imply an abortion ban endangers the lives of women with ectopic pregnancies and miscarriages.

I agree listing examples weakens the “I’m pro choice” argument because they’re slanted towards the few exceptions some pro-lifers will have…as in ban abortion except for rape, incest, extreme youth. And, it may have been cut off but the #1 reason why an abortion ban (pro life) kills women is because of back street black market abortions which will return and do carry a high risk of death.

I thought I had heard talk of them banning the surgery for an ectopic pregnancy (saying the foetus should be 'reimplanted' 🙄).

My friend shared this post, and her friend said she supported some of the imaginary women, but 'the rest can give their babies up for adoption'. 😡

ErrolTheDragon · 27/06/2022 07:41

RoseAndRose · 27/06/2022 07:15

What is the maternal death rate in US?

(Assuming this is about actual life, not quality of life)

There was a link from the BMJ piece I just posted to a page with a few articles on this - I've not read them but they may give you some clue

www.propublica.org/series/lost-mothers

DysmalRadius · 27/06/2022 07:51

Discovereads · 27/06/2022 07:16

They’re essentially saying they’re pro choice because it saves womens lives, which is pro-life for womens lives.

Their examples are a bit batshit though. One is of an ectopic pregnancy and surgery for that has never been considered an abortion (egg never leaves Fallopian tube). Another is of a miscarriage (no heartbeat at scan) and the medication or surgery for that has never been considered an abortion. So it’s disingenuous to imply an abortion ban endangers the lives of women with ectopic pregnancies and miscarriages.

I agree listing examples weakens the “I’m pro choice” argument because they’re slanted towards the few exceptions some pro-lifers will have…as in ban abortion except for rape, incest, extreme youth. And, it may have been cut off but the #1 reason why an abortion ban (pro life) kills women is because of back street black market abortions which will return and do carry a high risk of death.

www.google.com/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/us-news/2019/nov/29/ohio-extreme-abortion-bill-reimplant-ectopic-pregnancy

ErrolTheDragon · 27/06/2022 08:03

Here's the wiki page on maternal death rates in the US - obviously varies enormously by state. In many it's shameful.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maternal mortalityyin theeUnited_States

LadyApplejack · 27/06/2022 08:10

KilmordenCastle · 27/06/2022 00:05

Also the list of women who should be entitled to an abortion....well, yes, obviously, but what about women who just don't want a child and fell pregnant by mistake? It's every womans right to choose, not just the women in the examples who are in awful situations but are actually in the minority of people who have abortions

I've seen this post quite a few times on fb and I agree that there should be a mention of a woman that just doesn't want to have a baby. It kind of feels like it's been purposefully left out because it is somehow wrong, which isn't completely pro choice at all.

If I were to get pregnant now I would terminate. I'm in a very happy marriage, we have two young dc's already, our house is big enough for another child and we could just about afford another one (though it would be a struggle). On paper we have a perfect set up for another child, but I don't want one, so I would terminate. I don't want to be pregnant again, to put my body through carrying another baby, to look at the aftermath in the mirror and cry because I don't know if I'll be able to get anything that resembles my body back this time. I don't want to go back to square one with night feeds, sleep deprivation and nappies. I don't want to have another maternity leave followed by the stress of juggling childcare with work. I don't want to deal with the terrible two's and potty training all over again. I don't want any of that and I have a coil to prevent it from happening. But if the coil fails then I would terminate.

I definitely think that, if it were to happen, a few people that I know (who claim to be pro choice) would judge me for my reasons if I told them.

I could have written all this, including the bolded quote from a PP. I understand the intent behind them, but these long posts painting some women as more worthy of their innate right to bodily autonomy doesn't sit right for me.

Also, it invites the "pro-lifers" to say, "ok then we will allow it in X, Y, Z scenario" - which doesn't help the women out there who wouldn't meet the sob story threshold.

RoseAndRose · 27/06/2022 08:28

Thanks @ErrolTheDragon

JauntyJinty · 27/06/2022 08:37

I haven't seen the quote used myself, but I have thought before that arguing you're "pro-life" is a bit of a tactical thing, implying anyone arguing against you must be anti-life, so maybe it's just trying to cut that down? I feel like I might be stretching a bit there!