"Doctors warn against over-medicalising menopause"

[flashbac]

"Writing in the British Medical Journal they said there was an urgent need for a more realistic and balanced narrative which actively challenges the idea that menopause is synonymous with an inevitable decline in women’s health and wellbeing..."

www.theguardian.com/society/2022/jun/15/doctors-warn-against-over-medicalising-menopause-after-uk-criticism

I must admit, the raising awareness of how shit the menopause can be has created some worry about my impending menopause, so much so that I've decided against a career change in my 40s.

Are we making too much of a big deal and being overly negative? Or are these doctors just being patronising? Anyone had an easy menopause?

However the menopause crippled me. It came at 42. Over the next 7 years I got more and more hunched over, less and less sleep, and got greyer hair and my bones ached so bad I thought it must be some sort of bone disease. And it was. It was osteoporosis

i think the age of menopause is key. I’d be interested to know if those who have an easier time of it are older. I think studies have shown that the earlier menopause is the more likely osteoporosis is to develop.

with the studies looking at dementia etc as well I wonder if they adjust for age.

That sounds awful donut, how was the osteoporosis diagnosed was it following a fracture?

I get your point, it's fine to be very pro hrt but your language 'fuckwits' and 'wittering' is really unpleasant.

Again, we are allowed to question the sketchy research, we are allowed to query Davina's claims regarding dementia.

You only have to read the hrt board to see it can cause as many problems as folk claim it solves. So let women discuss it without your insults and withiut being so sneery.

I have had shitty periods since I was a teenager. In fact they were worse when I was a teenager and a young woman - I once even fainted in the supermarket. I used to spend hours lying on the floor because if I got up I’d pass out with the pain, I threw up almost every month, I would be sitting on the toilet having liquid diarrhoea with the pain praying I’d finish before I inevitably passed out so at least I wouldn’t come around covered in shit. It took years of this for any doctor to care, and the only thing that really helped was having a baby - they’re more manageable now, although still painful.

I’m still not looking forward to menopause, because I seem to be very sensitive to hormonal fluctuations generally. I already feel a little bit crazy just before my periods but I’m regular so I know what it is and what it means, and I’ve got my periods under control now, and just feel like shit rather than being incapacitated. The thought of all that being thrown into the air does not appeal.

I intend to take HRT, if I get any troublesome symptoms.

It doesn't seem like there is a pattern. I had a surgical menopause in mid 40s, had a bone scan just before covid and no osteoporosis, a reading towards the lower end on one area so advised to take vitamin D but 25 or so years on no osteoporosis. Never been sporty, never been a big consumer of dairy products so not sure what the answer is. It just seems totally random.

You quoted me so was the wittering on aimed at me? Very unfair, I haven't said anyone shouldn't have HRT if they need it.

We are discussing menopause and HRT and there is nothing wrong with people talking about their own experience good or bad but the abuse is uncalled for.

I don’t think it’s random as much as genetic. My menopause pretty much mirrored my mum’s in terms of age of onset and duration. Her symptoms were worse, though. She had osteoporosis but not until she was in her 90s, what with that and dementia, she pretty much fell apart in the last four years of her life. I hope I don’t live as long as she did.

You quoted me so was the wittering on aimed at me? Very unfair, I haven't said anyone shouldn't have HRT if they need it.

We are discussing menopause and HRT and there is nothing wrong with people talking about their own experience good or bad but the abuse is uncalled for.

You said: I wonder if women who had difficult periods feel more positive about menopause? As if we are just negative about it because we had light periods and if only they'd been heavier we would appreciate the menopause more. No. If you are going to insinuate such nonsense when again - some women are unable to actually WALK at the end of the day - it isn't to do with how heavy our periods were.

That sounds awful donut, how was the osteoporosis diagnosed was it following a fracture?

No, it was after 7 years of intense crippling pain and having to prove I was getting no sleep using my FItbit watch - and I had a FSH so high that he sent me immediately for a DEXA scan.

I get your point, it's fine to be very pro hrt but your language 'fuckwits' and 'wittering' is really unpleasant.

Perhaps people need to stop for one second and not witter on being fuckwits about this, pretending that we are making it up and if we'd just had heavier periods we'd appreciate that crippling pain a bit more or if we were just a bit busier we'd have hardly noticed it...

But you’re the one making stuff up @AlisonDonut. Literally nobody has said that. 🤷‍♀️

we are allowed to query Davina's claims regarding dementia it's not Davina's claims, there was a study about 3-4 weeks ago which said it found an 80% reduction in dementia in women who took HRT. I didn't read the detail and suspect it was vascular dementia (makes sense if it reduces the risk of strokes) but that's still a massive risk reduced. My ex-MIL had vascular dementia and I think my aunt had it too but she died before it really took hold (of a stroke - and neither took HRT).

And women who want to deny other women medication (and medical interventions) they want, are fu*kwits. Mind you own business.

Nobody wants to deny anyone else anything. A few of us are extremely sceptical of the dementia prevention claim because there’s no evidence. None. In fact Alzheimer’s UK has said there might even be an increased risk in HRT users. Mind your own business.

And women who want to deny other women medication (and medical interventions)

I haven’t seen anyone post this

Well I did a very quick non scientific survey of my breast cancer support group. The question was “ did anyone take HRT for menopausal symptoms before being diagnosed with hormone driven breast cancer”
within an hour I had 48 posts from women who had been diagnosed with hormone sensitive breast cancer after being on HRT.
None of the group regret taking HRT because it helped the symptoms but many of us wonder whether the rapid growth of our cancer was a direct result of HRT and had we not had HRT would our immune systems have had the opportunity to fight the cancer, thereby doing what it is designed to do, if the growth had not been accelerated.
All of us were advised to stop HRT immediately at diagnosis but no one suggested reporting the potential side effect via the yellow card system.
My next job is to check the yellow card stats and the possibly start a campaign for breast units and GPS to encourage reporting.
I know this would be controversial but with the massive improvements in early detection maybe screening for sub clinical hormone positive breast cancer could be part of the preparation for HRT. If and when theses tests become available.
It is well documented that many hormone positive cancers are very slow growing post menopausal so it follows that by reintroducing hormones it might be stimulating these previously slow growing tumours to become life limiting tumours.
The standard treatment for hormone positive cancers is to block hormones ( breast cancer and prostate cancer being the most frequently diagnosed) it’s not a great leap to suggest that if blocking hormones prevents them recurring then taking hormones actually stimulates the growth.
It is well documented that breast cancer is more common in women who start puberty before the age of 12 and also in women who are late going through menopause (50+) so prolonged exposure to natural oestrogen is known to increase your risk. Do we really accept that extending our exposure to oestrogen artificially will have no effect on these statistics.
HRT has only been around for 30 yrs or so and in the early days was only given post menopausally and to women who had ovaries removed early. Also usually only for 5 yrs.
The current prescribing advise is to start taking it peri menopausally and take it indefinitely. We have no data available for taking oestrogen indefinitely.
I would like to add that my waffle is about hormone positive breast cancer in women over fifty not the other variations. However it is the most common type of breast cancer.

That's interesting. I can't really compare mine with my mothers as mine was surgical and her's wasn't. Although one thing we had in common was periods ending overnight, mine obviously because of surgery and hers as my father suddenly died when she was in her 40s, she had a very heavy period (bit of an understatement) and never had another. Something to do with the shock I suppose or maybe it was going to happen anyway, we'll never know.

My mother lost alot of confidence, became nervous but again was that suddenly losing her husband and finding herself a widow with kids of school age and a family business to run or was it the menopause.

@Angrymum22 That is interesting. Very proactive of you.

No none of us have seen that. People are making stuff up.

Some people seem to want to close down reasonable discussion, I wonder why?

@Angrymum22
thank you for posting. You make a very logical observation.

You said: I wonder if women who had difficult periods feel more positive about menopause? As if we are just negative about it because we had light periods and if only they'd been heavier we would appreciate the menopause more. No. If you are going to insinuate such nonsense when again - some women are unable to actually WALK at the end of the day - it isn't to do with how heavy our periods were.

Gosh, it hasn't sweetened your mood, that is for sure.

Actually, if you had read the post above the "offending" statement, you will see it was a comment on my post about how happy I am to not be in so much pain postmenopause. It was a musing comment, by Blossom. Not a minimising comment re others' experiences. You have attacked another poster recklessly and needlessly because of your comprehension skills and rash assumptions.

My post was about assumptions being made and senseless attacks, also. I should have made a separate post, using bullet points, for clarity I suppose. I was adding my relief of pain in as another benefit of being post-meno whilst refuting the notion I was against hormonal therapies of any sort.

To be clear, I am not against HRT (mind you it led to my mother's death; she died with beautiful skin, mind you).

I am against the menopause transition being treated like a disease process.

I am against women shouting others down who choose not to pursue it.

And I am very much against false facts repeated on and on.

I am very much sorry for your situation, which sounds horrible, and for the way medicine/your GP has failed you - but nobody is denying anyone else access to HRT by simply discussing it's pros and cons, and refuting nonsense claims.

Just finished reading the whole thread and finding it interesting
I'm not menopausal yet but HRT was something I was reading about - my mum has just passed away with pneumonia but secondary to early onset Alzheimer's. My Nan had Alzheimer's, so does my dads sister, and now my mums brother has just been diagnosed and I'm slightly terrified to say the least. No history of any cancer, heart attacks, nothing in the family except dementia

So for me it would be the short term benefits like everyone is saying and also does it help protect with dementia or vice versa? My mum didn't have HRT

In this thread:
Taking HRT is 'trendy' 6 days ago 22:30
One person far too busy to notice lol 21:49 2 days ago
I wonder if women who had difficult periods feel more positive about menopause? 18:14 yesterday

Another saying osteoporosis is about the bone breaks. It really isn't just about bone breaks. If you'd ever had it, you would know that it is crippling, because you cannot lift anything, including yourself - it literally feels as if your bones are turning into sponges.

For context; women who work from 17-42 and then have an early menopause have exactly the same length of time between 42-67 to carry on working, albeit potentially with no bone strength. Calcium tablets aren't going to cut it. Using weights that you cannot lift, isn't going to cut it. I used to be able to lift bags of compost onto my shoulder and carry them across the site. During the time before I started on HRT and for a few years after, I couldn't even drag a bag of compost and had to cut them in half in my boot, and decant into small trugs to even get it in the house. Which when you are teaching horticulture at colleges 2 days a week where the car park is far from the growing space is quite a task.

25 more years of that - not going to happen. I'm lucky in that I finally got a doctor to listen after proving I was having no sleep with my fitbit sleep tracker, and that I could take early retirement at 53. HRT starts to get the bones back but you never get back the same strength that you once had.

If they want us to carry on working til 67 then they are going to have to medicate those of us that will need some form of HRT to make it there.

Another saying osteoporosis is about the bone breaks.

They only said that because the scientific studies to date that claim HRT protects against osteoporosis are literally based on measuring the number of bone fractures between HRT users and non HRT controls. You’re right it isn’t about fractures alone, which is why many of us have ??? about whether HRT does actually have a protective factor against osteoporosis.

i think the age of menopause is key. I’d be interested to know if those who have an easier time of it are older. I think studies have shown that the earlier menopause is the more likely osteoporosis is to develop.

I'm 53 this year, still having periods. Perimenopause brought me appalling joint pain, couldn't sleep for it, my fingers were so sore I could have cried. My memory was so bad that I was seriously worried that I had alzheimers. Menopause is certainly not turning out to be easier and I'm not even there yet. I wasn't overweight and ate healthily.
I'm on HRT now, my symptoms have eased a lot.

You only have to read the hrt board to see it can cause as many problems as folk claim it solves.

It's a menopause board, not technically an HRT board. But tbf many of the problems are caused by hit and miss prescribing by GPs who don't have enough training in this area, you really need to do your own research, although that brings its own problems.

There almost certainly is an age related effect ( worse health / diet seems to lead to earlier menopause so not unlikely that will also be more severe symptoms ) ( but it's not the only thing related to earlier menopause). but it's not clear cuts - it affects the probability of problems and unfortunately there has been very little research done to quantify anything

The "HRT " board - I guess people with no problems don't need to post for help

Not sure what you mean by "post menopause"?