Changing the language re SAHMs

[Nocaloriesinchocolate]

This is not TAAT but on another thread Ive just been reading the OP said she and DH had 3 young children and went on to say wtte of “I dont work; DH is the sole earner”. I hate, hate, hate that phrase since imo it completely denigrates and diminishes what a SAHM does. Of course a SAHM works - probably harder than a wage earning partner since she doesn’t clock off. What she means - and this is what I wish people would say instead - is that she is not in paid employment.

OK rant over

We have tax credits, UC and other benefits which are based on household income and household size / children in the household - a lone parent is more likely to qualify for them based on household income than a couple. The US system works similarly, tax credits are paid out based in income and household size / number of children in the household.

I am in agreement with this. I just think tax should also be on a household basis. In fact, it's a slightly underhand move by the government that benefits, with a few exceptions, are on a household basis and tax on an individual one; if the systems were consistent they'd end up either getting less tax in or paying more benefits out.

My mother uses "lotus eater" and/or "lily of the field

i say I’m a lily of the field! 😀

i do not want to eat a lotus though

Well i used to say it

then i got a job in a shop 😩

I'm a SAHP and DH and I were discussing this the other day.

He didn't like when I said to someone that I didn't work. He said he preferred that I was on a career break .... which is true, the plan is for me to go back to work when youngest is settled in school .... so don't want to though.

I find it really hard to find a term for me that I like. I dislike housewife as that implies house and husband are the priorities. I don't like SAHM because I want the kids to know that I stay home because I WANT to not because I'm mum. I don't like full time mum either as I have always been that, even when working full time.

I've settled on SAHP but it still not quite right.

were you going for glory here op? Flying the flag for sahms and wanted to make some new friends.

sadly for you putting down working mums to be able to do it is not an ideal way forward and always going to massively back fire. You can big up one woman without ripping down another.

I kinda feel this is overthinking it, though. If I ask you as a person I’ve met at a hobby / party / gathering what you do, I’m not looking for your life history and five year future plan, I’m looking for a conversation starter. So if you say “I’m a doctor” I can say “ooh, well I promise I’m not going to whip out my gangrenous boil and ask for a diagnosis, haha!”; and if you say “I’m a specialist underwriter for a legacy runoff and reinsurance provider” I can respond “gosh, what a coincidence, I’m a company secretary for a legacy runoff and reinsurance provider!” and we can talk about all the excitement that happens at Lloyd’s (or not.) And if you say “I don’t work, I stay at home with the kids” I can respond “nice, what ages are they, how many do you have?”

I think it’s parents of both the working and staying at home kind who seem to judge themselves far more harshly than anyone else really does in actuality.

Of course a SAHM works - probably harder than a wage earning partner since she doesn’t clock off. but you get that when the wage earning partner clocks off they then also parent? Bar a commute. And may also be in emergency contact in the day. So I only work two commute times more than DH by being a SAHP whilst he is a WOHP

Exactly. And it’s not a competition on who works hardest.

as said, you can big up one woman without ripping down another. We all do what’s right for our families, trying to argue that if you’re a parent who works you don’t parent when you aren’t working is nothing short of ludicrous.

I suspect the op simply didn’t think it through and was going for glory with sahm versus working fathers and completely forgot the vast majority of mothers now work.

and yeah, we are still mothers.

Of course it can. And it can be easier.

Assuming I went back to my old job, I'd have dropped the kids off at the childminder at 8 and collected them at 5.30. So for those 9.5 hours it depends what I find harder - caring for three kids Inc snacks, lunch, nappies, possibly dinner, tidying up after those three kids, playing with them etc. Or my job - dealing with neighbour nuisance and other housing enquiries. And which of those two options depends on who I am, my mood, what my kids are like, etc. Do I value a 39 minute lunch break over watching some telly with a tepid coffee whilst the kids play? Do I thrive on social interaction with adults or playgroup?

Do I think I worked as hard as my sons surgeon or his army of nurses? No. Do I think I worked harder than say the lady in the gift shop downstairs or the catering staff when I was home with a medically complex child on o2 who had to be bolus fed every few hours. You're damn right I do.

Exactly. And it’s not a competition on who works hardest. except when DH comes home and I make him make me coffee cos I've worked harder 😂. But I had twin toddlers and he has an office job with spreadsheets so I do.

I'm enjoying being home with the kids fro a few years?

That implies implies choice and temporary.

I mean it doesn't need to be a label, it can be a sentence.

I WOH full time. DH is basically a SAHP (he does a few hours a week consultancy work) but has at various times over the years worked full-time or part time. Very much his choice. The way i would express it is that even when DH has not been earning, he has been making a financial contribution, in that when he was earning we had to pay for childcare, which we didn't when he was SAHP.

I would not say that him being at home enables me to earn what i earn, because there have been times when I have been in the same role when he did work and I did my job just as well, and i got my latest promotion at a time when he worked full time (and some of my colleagues are perfectly well able to do the job as a single parent or with partners doing similar jobs). Nevertheless I do see him as a making a financial contribution.
I also think the contribution is not just financial - there are benefits to our family in him being at home. The DC like it, and it has enabled them to participate in things that they might not otherwise have been able to (and get more help with homework), plus it takes the pressure off me a bit with things like household admin. However, when we have had childcare (a nanny), the DC have also been very happy and built real bonds with another adult which is nice as our family live a bit of a distance away (they still keep in touch).

I am not sure I (or DH) would say there is value to wider society in DH being at home though. Economically, if he WOH that would be 3 people earning and paying tax (both of us plus childcarer) rather than one. I also don't think having a SAHP necessarily means a better outcome for DC. I know lots of lovely teens and young adults and I honestly don't think anyone could tell whether they grew up with a SAHM or not. I also know the odd bad egg, some who had SAHPs and some who did not.

I feel comfortable in the choices I (and we) have made and really don't care what labels people choose to use about themselves or about WAHPs or SAHPs generally. If a SAHM wants to call themselves a full time mum, i cant get too excited. It does not make me feel judged or bad about my choices or less of a mum when i am in the office. However, i do try to use the generally preferred expressions as I know others do get offended.

I fundamentally disagree that SAHPs work harder though. Some SAHPs work harder than WOHPs, some WOHPs work harder than SAHPs. When DC were little, i did not see being with them in the evenings or weekends as hard work. I most particularly disagree with the idea that SAHPs do not clock off and WOHPs do. When I am at home, I do as much (generally more) with the DC than DH (always have). I have one friends whose (ex-) DH was a SAHP and how very much clocked off the second she got home and they barely some him at weekends. I am sure if it true on some families, but more fool the SAHP for accepting that.

[I confess that the age of our DC is such that it is no longer true that DH is making a financial contribution as they would not need any childcare anyway, but let's ignore that - he now describes himself as retired!]

I've been a full time working mum with my DC in childcare 5 days a week from 7am until 6-6:30pm and a SAHM.

I personally found being a F/T working mum far easier than being a SAHM. There was different guilt when I was a SAHM and when I was a full time working mum. When I was working I missed our time together so my time spent with them was intentional.

When we were around each other all the time I could attend more school events and take them places but I was permanently tired and had no identity or outlet other than being around DC all day as a mum. I'm not saying all SAHMs feel this way, I simply did.

The sweet spot was working Part Time which is why I was surprised about posters referring to part time mums as SAHMs. I had negative comments about working full time and about staying at home and not working but Part Time seems to be applauded and even envied.

@ForestFae I think this is in part because many posters on MN are not parents themselves and resent or don't understand why a woman would choose to stay at home because it's not seemingly feminist. I also think some of the parents are aspiring MC or lower MC who are mortgaged to the hilt and feel defensive about working.

Can't believe people still argue about this. It's ridiculous.

Everyone's circumstances are different.

Some people want to work.

Some people want to look after their kids from home themselves.

Some people can't afford to not work.

Some people find it isn't financially viable to work when they consider childcare costs.

Some people can't think of anything worse than being at home all the time with the kids, therefore preferring to work and enjoy weekends and evenings together.

Some people genuinely enjoy being at home with the kids and do it out of choice.

Some people have worked their arse off for a career they love and don't want to give it up, so why should they?

Some people didn't have a career, just a job, and didn't mind giving it up for a few years.

Whatever they are doing, they are contributing to their kids and families lives in the most appropriate way for them.

Neither choice is superior to the other.

Call yourself what you want. Perhaps start with SAHP to include dads who do this too.

But do feck off with the put downs on those who work Of course a SAHM works - probably harder than a wage earning partner since she doesn’t clock off cause you lost all support from me with that little gem.

PPs have made points about how it depends what type of job you did before and on what kind of child you have. I'd agree largely, but I think it also depends a lot on the parent!

Being a SAHM to my son is infinitely harder work than my previous job, which I think most people would describe as "skilled", or at least a "good" job. However, at uni I worked at a busy coffee shop, and I despised it and found it incredibly hard work. I'd sooner be looking after my baby any day! But I'm sure many people would find working at a coffee shop easy, and others would find my "career" job difficult depending on their personality/skills.

Some people love to be physically active all day, so maybe they find running round after babies and toddlers easy, but find their high-stress desk job difficult. Some people need mental downtime, so maybe they find the constant "on" of parenting small children tough and find their desk job easier because they can go and have a 5 minute break when they need it. Maybe some people find their jobs easy AND parenting easy. Maybe others find both incredibly difficult.

I have a friend who was a nanny but gave up to be a SAHM. She says that when she worked, she'd always get people exclaiming about how exhausted she must be working with children all day. Now she's a SAHM, she says that her days are essentially the same amount of work except that it's now 24/7. Now she says that she feels judgement from people and gets comments insinuating that her life must be easy, even though it's essentially the exact same "work" she did as a nanny. She says that she thinks that being a nanny was easier than being a SAHM to her own children, but I'm sure there are as many other nannies who would disagree as those who would agree with her.

It also depends on the child, I think. And that's before we even get into disability and illness, both for the child and parent.

Basically, I think that blanket statements are not very useful and that we're all doing fab

Some people in paid employment eork harder than others
Sone SAHM work harder than others.

How hard it is very much depends on the age and how many children you have, any special needs or disabilities, how much you outsource (cleaning/ironing etc) , family or other support.

I know several SAHMs of NT teens who get themselves to and from school each day. It definitely seems easier than working ft but perhaps it isn't.
Any mum of babies, pre schoolers or toddlers is going to work hard and rarely switch off or have any downtime, regardless whether they're a SAHM or a working parent!

I agree, "not in paid employment" is a more sensible phrase than "not working". I also agree with the pp who asked SAHMs to ditch the phrase "full time mum". We are all full time mums, obviously.

Imagine talking to someone you don't know well and saying "I'm not in paid employment" if they ask what you do. You'll sound like a complete knobber.
I say "I don't work". It's not an announcement made out of the blue and apropos of nothing; it only ever occurs when talk of work and jobs is going on, so the meaning (not in paid employment) is pretty clear.
If they're interested I might add that I was made redundant at round about the same time as my husband started working away, as well as my autistic child needing more support, but that's just by the by, not to justify myself.

I think people also understand well what someone means if they use the phrase "full time mum". It's not meant to be an attack on anyone else!

So what are you called if you don’t need to stay at home for kids (older kids) but you chose not to work because you don’t want or need to..are those women the very worst of the worst??!

Lady of Leisure.

I know my DH would feel resentful if I didn't go to work (or contribute financially) at all, now that our children are old enough not to need "childcare" as such.
However I know lots of SAHMs with kids of similar age, and assume it works well for their family set up, and all parties are in agreement, otherwise presumably they would be working.

Imagine talking to someone you don't know well and saying "I'm not in paid employment" if they ask what you do. You'll sound like a complete knobber.

THIS!

I don't understand why people aren't just saying 'I'm a stay at home parent'.

Why's that a problem? Why's that shameful? Why dress it up something mysterious.

If you don't work and stay at home to look after the children, that literally translates to 'stay at home parent".

'Career break' also works if you are intending to return to your career, but trying to make SAHP sound like something it isn't is just bonkers 😂

How is she criticising it???

you’ve got to admit that SAHM get treated like crap. They have a hard job and get very little respect. Yes twenty years ago it was the other way around.

Treat women properly like the human beings they are. Thanks.

As a sahm I really don't see a problem with the phrase you've quoted op. Most people work to pay bills, not because they just love their job. I consider being able to stay at home with my kids to be a privilege so it's not "work" in the same way a job is. I don't say "DH is the sole earner" as I do have a small income from a rental property, but if I didn't have that I would be happy to describe dh as the sole earner as it would be fact. I also don't describe myself as a "full-time mum" and get annoyed at sahms who do.

I also disagree that wohp parents clock off and sahm don't, working parents come home and do all the parenting/housework/life admin, they don't come home and put their feet up and ignore their children for the rest of the day. For me, when dh finishes work he takes the kids off my hands for an hour, either out to the park or plays with them at home and I get a lovely break to go and have some downtime or catch up with any housework I didn't get round to during the day. If we were both working then I imagine it would be harder to get that daily break and I'd have to share it with dh