Active discussions

Meet the Other Phone. Child-safe in minutes.

Meet the Other Phone.
Child-safe in minutes.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Talk
Chat

Join the discussion and chat with other Mumsnetters about everyday life, relationships and parenting.

Original poster

How to convince my autistic SIL to not put all her money in PayPal

29 replies

onthefencesitter · 10/06/2022 08:13

My SIL earns a small amount of money writing online. In around 2 years she has earned around US$15k. It's all still in PayPal as the 'reason' is that the fees to convert it an take it out are very high. While that is true, there isn't any other alternative one can do! It's been sitting there for around 2 years and DH now has realized she is doing what her dad did (he was unemployed for many years and would fantastically save his 'pocket money' that he got from DH's mum and ask for additional money for buying groceries etc). Which is why after they divorced and he got a 100k settlement for the house, that wasn't the only money he had despite not working for many years, he had additional savings (which he placed in ISAs and bonds) which is why he was able to retire to Thailand (and also support a new wife)...

It's not my business what she does with her money but I dont think she is aware of the implications of leaving it in PayPal. Firstly, inflation. Secondly, monies in PayPal are not guaranteed. She is not contributing NI so no state pension. I suggested contributing to a pension or buying bonds/shares, which she laughed at and said it was silly cos 'mummy has no pension too why should I have one'. 'Well mummy has a state pension, tiny private pension and owns her house. That's very different.' SIL lives with MIL which is fine for now but if MIL needs care, what happens then?

I am concerned about this as DH's other siblings are overseas, I don't think there is any plan for the future so DH and I might be supporting her. I realized this yesterday when DH's sister blew up at DH and told him that because DH and their siblings left her out of playtime, he owes her. we think MIL might be encouraging this narrative perhaps not consciously but this narrative is quite convenient as MIL doesn't need to solve the existing problem (SIL was diagnosed but has never received medical help and to this day denies there is a problem) and SIL would always be taken care of. If we are to support her, then it's easy if there is money (just like FIL had money). Also as she is young, there are many years left where the problem can be solved but I fear the problem might get worse since everyone is ignoring it..

OP posts:
Original poster
onthefencesitter · 10/06/2022 08:15

So many typos!

*Fanatically

*easier

OP posts:
22N · 10/06/2022 08:17

Not understanding why it’s your business or what autism has to do with it.

Original poster
onthefencesitter · 10/06/2022 08:28

@22N if we are expected to support her, isn't it better if she has more money than if she had nearly nothing? She has no state pension, no job, no GCSEs. MIL's house might be sold to pay for care, no idea how much will be left?

OP posts:

Interested in this thread?

Then you might like threads about this subject:

General money
22N · 10/06/2022 08:33

But you are not expected to support her, you are assuming that but it isn’t a given at all.

Original poster
onthefencesitter · 10/06/2022 08:37

@22N there isn't anyone else? Who else is there? The state? She doesn't acknowledge she has special needs so can't qualify for disability benefit. Mil will pass on one day and doesn't have anything other than the house which would probably be sold to pay for care.

OP posts:
picklemewalnuts · 10/06/2022 08:40

I'm in a similar position, without the PayPal complication.

All you can do is try and enable her to think for herself.

Ask questions like 'how will you pay for food? Where will you live?'.

I have a BiL who lives with parents, has no savings, when his parents die he will need somewhere to live.

It's so difficult.

picklemewalnuts · 10/06/2022 08:42

And it's a given, 22N, is the alternative to supporting someone is them living on the streets. My BiL doesn't have the ability to plan, predict, engage... he lives in the moment. He doesn't pay any bills, do any direct debits, keep track of his money...

People like this are easily taken advantage of, if no one is protecting them.

22N · 10/06/2022 08:46

onthefencesitter · 10/06/2022 08:37

@22N there isn't anyone else? Who else is there? The state? She doesn't acknowledge she has special needs so can't qualify for disability benefit. Mil will pass on one day and doesn't have anything other than the house which would probably be sold to pay for care.

You are making a LOT of assumptions and also your post is very poorly written so it is difficult to follow. But you yourself wrote I know it isn’t my business and there is your answer.

Original poster
onthefencesitter · 10/06/2022 09:33

picklemewalnuts · 10/06/2022 08:40

I'm in a similar position, without the PayPal complication.

All you can do is try and enable her to think for herself.

Ask questions like 'how will you pay for food? Where will you live?'.

I have a BiL who lives with parents, has no savings, when his parents die he will need somewhere to live.

It's so difficult.

I think on some level she is aware of that but she might not be completely aware of the cost of living or how care costs can erode her inheritance. Her mum is also a bohemian boomer and her mum also frowns upon us talking about the cost of living with her and that generation did have an easier time with housing. So MIL has a skewed view of what it actually costs for someone of SIL's generation to live.. her view is that she coped in the 1990s with 4 kids and a freelance income so SIL should be able to cope with a tiny income (locked in PayPal).

OP posts:
thefamilyupstairs · 15/06/2022 09:54

I think this is your business OP. If something happens to your DMIL culturally you and your husband are probably expected to take care of her? You and your DH are likely to have to pick up the pieces so this very much will impact you. I'd be getting your DH to speak to his mother about what plans/provisions she is making for her DD for after she dies.

Original poster
onthefencesitter · 17/06/2022 22:40

thefamilyupstairs · 15/06/2022 09:54

I think this is your business OP. If something happens to your DMIL culturally you and your husband are probably expected to take care of her? You and your DH are likely to have to pick up the pieces so this very much will impact you. I'd be getting your DH to speak to his mother about what plans/provisions she is making for her DD for after she dies.

No provisions. That is definite.

What money is left after the sale of the house (3 bed terrace in northLondon) and if any care costs needs to be paid. Also the house is not maintained so would likely be in a state in 20-30 years time (and was bought as a dooer upper 25 years ago; has had v few repairs). right now it doesn't make much difference due to scarcity of housing in north london but as building costs rise and labour is more scarce, maybe it may make more of a difference. Any buyer has to completely gut the place basically.

OP posts:
thefamilyupstairs · 20/06/2022 08:03

Is she hoping that your SIL will just continue to live in the house after she dies?
How does your DH feel about it? Is he concerned enough to speak to his DM?

hopeishere · 20/06/2022 09:25

This is your DHs sister I assume?
How old is she and how severe is her autism?
Has she ever worked outside the home?
What level of understanding does she have?

Your DH needs to lay it out for his mum.

Original poster
onthefencesitter · 20/06/2022 09:26

thefamilyupstairs · 20/06/2022 08:03

Is she hoping that your SIL will just continue to live in the house after she dies?
How does your DH feel about it? Is he concerned enough to speak to his DM?

I talked to my Dh and apparently his mum has earned less than I thought; 14k in some years. Its not at all unrealistic that my SIL will earn around that amount from her writing soon enough. I think that my MIL doesn't like thinking about money and she probably believes that as she has managed, her children would too...of course she also owns a house so her expenses would be v different.

OP posts:
Original poster
onthefencesitter · 20/06/2022 09:46

hopeishere · 20/06/2022 09:25

This is your DHs sister I assume?
How old is she and how severe is her autism?
Has she ever worked outside the home?
What level of understanding does she have?

Your DH needs to lay it out for his mum.

She is 24. I am not sure how severe it is. It was diagnosed but she hasn't really gotten any formal help. She has gotten kicked out of school due to her autism (no GCSEs as a result and she keeps failing those she takes as a private candidate), and she doesn't really listen to authority so her mother doesn't think she can work in a british school or workplace setting. To be fair, my MIL doesn't accept authority either (except religious authority) so this could just be my SIL following cues from her mother and it may not just be the autism. SIL only has online friends, and doesn't interact in real life with anyone but family. She therefore grows very dependent on us for social contact and gets anxious about being 'cut-off' from us socially. We need to help her feel included all the time, buy her treats. She has a fairly narrow understanding of the world as expected from someone who doesn't leave home; and she can get fairly explosive when we don't agree with her.

Re SIL's work experience, she has helped out as an occasional carer for a local old lady i.e. looking after her at night, massaging her feet. Otherwise, she mainly writes online and gets some income from it. She is up all night and wakes up at 2 pm ! Its really difficult to wake her up, and it does make taking her out challenging, esp since the only day we can take her out is Sunday (we are working on other days and saturday is shabbat- they are orthodox jewish).

My DH is trying very hard to get along better with her and to see things from her viewpoint. He is trying to make her happier by taking her out for pizza and days out. He thinks this might help her become happier and that may help her focus and structure- which would help her become more self sufficient. He doesn't think his mother would be very encouraging of SIL earning more money. MIL disagrees with people earning more money; MIL once scoffed when I said I wanted to get a better job with better salary due to inflation as she said that 'well you are managing ok right; why do you need more money; if inflation is 8%, you just need to buy cheaper things'. She would probably tell SIL that if SIL needs money after she dies and there isn't enough from the house, SIL needs to get benefits/council housing and live on that.

OP posts:
hopelesslydevotedtoGu · 20/06/2022 11:12

It's very frustrating when you can see a car crash situation developing, and your SIL and MIL have their heads in the sand and won't do anything to prevent it.

I think all you can do is decide together with your DH what the extent of his involvement will be, and communicate this to them. Be clear that if they want your help with sensible practical steps now you will help with that (e.g. applying for benefits if she would be eligible), and be clear about what you won't do in future.

I appreciate it may be more difficult for your DH if his family is orthodox Jewish, as there may be wider cultural expectations. You and your DH really need to be on the same page about this.

About care costs - is there a care cap now, so your MIL's whole estate wouldn't be used up on care costs?

Unfortunately if they both put their heads in the sand and they both have capacity, it's limited what can be achieved. In my experience often it takes some kind of crisis for people to confront reality.

I'd focus your involvement on encouraging your SIL to gain some financial and housing stability - for example encouraging her to apply for benefits, go on housing list (appreciate she will be low priority whilst housed with MIL). Encourage MIL to get a LPA for finance in case she loses capacity in future, encourage MIL to consider (shock horror) selling up and buying a more appropriate home.

The paypal issue is less urgent - it should be safe enough there for now. It's good she is earning some money from her writing.

I would be less inclined to buy her treats to cheer her up - seems a distraction from the big issues that need sorting out. If she needs to buy her own treats maybe she will withdraw some of the paypal money!

Original poster
onthefencesitter · 20/06/2022 11:28

hopelesslydevotedtoGu · 20/06/2022 11:12

It's very frustrating when you can see a car crash situation developing, and your SIL and MIL have their heads in the sand and won't do anything to prevent it.

I think all you can do is decide together with your DH what the extent of his involvement will be, and communicate this to them. Be clear that if they want your help with sensible practical steps now you will help with that (e.g. applying for benefits if she would be eligible), and be clear about what you won't do in future.

I appreciate it may be more difficult for your DH if his family is orthodox Jewish, as there may be wider cultural expectations. You and your DH really need to be on the same page about this.

About care costs - is there a care cap now, so your MIL's whole estate wouldn't be used up on care costs?

Unfortunately if they both put their heads in the sand and they both have capacity, it's limited what can be achieved. In my experience often it takes some kind of crisis for people to confront reality.

I'd focus your involvement on encouraging your SIL to gain some financial and housing stability - for example encouraging her to apply for benefits, go on housing list (appreciate she will be low priority whilst housed with MIL). Encourage MIL to get a LPA for finance in case she loses capacity in future, encourage MIL to consider (shock horror) selling up and buying a more appropriate home.

The paypal issue is less urgent - it should be safe enough there for now. It's good she is earning some money from her writing.

I would be less inclined to buy her treats to cheer her up - seems a distraction from the big issues that need sorting out. If she needs to buy her own treats maybe she will withdraw some of the paypal money!

How does being on a housing list help though? Is it so that she might get a place in 20 years time? Does it work like that? If she gets one in 20 years time (we are in London), that would help.

I had an idea that we could buy another bigger flat (we were planning to buy a bigger flat anyway) and rent out our current flat so that if SIL needs housing in future, she can live in our current flat and the mortgage would be fairly low at that point (so she can pay us with whatever she gets from housing benefit). Its also a 2 bed flat so if DH and I have an adult child in future who can't afford his own place, he or she can live there with his aunt and also help her with the costs of running the flat. But the conditions for BTL landlords are not favorable at the moment...

OP posts:
thefamilyupstairs · 20/06/2022 11:34

I have a teen with autism and although fairly high functioning I don't anticipate she will ever be able to support herself financially through work. I'm young and hopefully have many years ahead but putting robust plans into place for now should anything happen to me, I really don't want my other dc to have to sort it out.
At the very minimum I'd be wanting SIL to apply for any benefits she's entitled to. Sell this to your MIL as SILs pension plan. Is SIL likely to ever marry?

thefamilyupstairs · 20/06/2022 11:38

It's very unlikely she would get a council property even in 20 years. She's living in an adequate home with no overcrowding and no immediate threat of homelessness.

Original poster
onthefencesitter · 20/06/2022 11:58

thefamilyupstairs · 20/06/2022 11:34

I have a teen with autism and although fairly high functioning I don't anticipate she will ever be able to support herself financially through work. I'm young and hopefully have many years ahead but putting robust plans into place for now should anything happen to me, I really don't want my other dc to have to sort it out.
At the very minimum I'd be wanting SIL to apply for any benefits she's entitled to. Sell this to your MIL as SILs pension plan. Is SIL likely to ever marry?

I would say not likely to marry as her only interaction is with her family.

She did apply for UC during the pandemic, but MIL says she is no longer on UC. I suspect she is not entitled to much as she lives with family. Yes the money in paypal so it can't be in a pension. There is no state pension either as she is not contributing NI.

Sorry if its too personal but why do you think your teen can't work? If he is highly functioning and hopefully can get gcses, a levels and perhaps even uni, can he perhaps get a job, even if it is not well paid.

OP posts:
ChuckBerrysBoots · 20/06/2022 12:09

To settle one issue, the value of the home may not be taken into account for the purpose of calculating the cost of contributions to residential care fees if an adult relative under 60 who is incapacitated still lives there. In terms of what is meant by “incapacitated” - receiving incapacity benefit, DLA, PIP, or not in receipt of those but incapacity is equivalent to what would be necessary to qualify for those. I’m not sure what view a council might take if your SIL is capable of earning over £10k a year for writing - she may need to undergo her own assessments of need to establish her level of incapacity.

ChuckBerrysBoots · 20/06/2022 12:12

The PayPal is a red herring issue that can be parked. I agree with a PP, the more immediate issue you may want to discuss with both MIL and SIL lasting power of attorney arrangements for their health/welfare and finance, should one or both eventually be deemed to lack capacity.

Essexgirlupnorth · 20/06/2022 12:17

I know several small businesses and a charity that have had money in paypal and paypal have frozen their accounts and they couldn't get at it for months so I would be encouraging her to remove it from paypal and put it somewhere more secure.

Original poster
onthefencesitter · 20/06/2022 12:21

ChuckBerrysBoots · 20/06/2022 12:09

To settle one issue, the value of the home may not be taken into account for the purpose of calculating the cost of contributions to residential care fees if an adult relative under 60 who is incapacitated still lives there. In terms of what is meant by “incapacitated” - receiving incapacity benefit, DLA, PIP, or not in receipt of those but incapacity is equivalent to what would be necessary to qualify for those. I’m not sure what view a council might take if your SIL is capable of earning over £10k a year for writing - she may need to undergo her own assessments of need to establish her level of incapacity.

She doesn't receive disability/incapacity benefit and i highly doubt she would qualify either. I actually think she is capable of working and earning enough to support herself but that may not happen due to her upbringing. due to her autism, she needs more support and structure than most. As my DH puts it, she needs role models. Her only role model at present is my MIL who is 60 and works few hours at home (she was raising 4 kids for most of her working life and is also at an age where most people would be preparing for retirement; so is accustomed to this pace of work). Unlike SIL, MIL had financial support from a parent and also benefited from an unprecedented rise in housing prices which is not likely to be repeated. However, as SIL is autistic, she doesn't understand the differences between her and her mum. Her attitude is 'mummy works these few hours at home, and mummy is self employed'. I am also self employed and I write and my subscribers pay me money, that is good enough.' From her viewpoint, its logical. From a real world perspective, not so much.

OP posts:
ChuckBerrysBoots · 20/06/2022 12:27

Well she is also receiving financial support from a parent in that she is presumably living rent free with her mother and will (eventually) benefit from the sale of the property? There is a conversation to be had between your DH and his siblings about long term arrangements for their sister in the event their mother is no longer living in the home but it sounds like you potentially have plenty of time to slowly guide her towards the realities of eventually living independently