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Ukraine Invasion: Part 26

993 replies

MagicFox · 20/05/2022 09:35

Here we are, on top of our rock

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61
TargusEasting · 31/05/2022 21:39

blueshoes · 31/05/2022 21:30

Sorry to be slow on the uptake. Is Ukrainian forces withdrawing from fighting in Severodonetsk and not being present in the city centre a good thing or bad thing or a sign of something?

It's a bad sign being managed appropriately.

Think of the cabin crew when oxygen masks come down. Put your own mask on first so that you survive and can function to help others. There comes a point in close combat when that is all you have to do.

They will leave behind civilians but can only help the greater Ukraine by surviving to fight another day. This is inherent in all wars.

MMBaranova · 31/05/2022 21:48

Image a snip from a bigger Australian Strategic Policy Institute map.

Giving up a city in itself might not seem like a great move, however, given the circumstances it is understandable.

The danger is that significant Ukrainian forces get ground down and then encircled in a cauldron/pocket.

Ukraine Invasion: Part 26
ScrollingLeaves · 31/05/2022 21:57

I was browsing through Ukraine Twitter and someone had posted this New York Times article. It more or less says Putin was pushed into his invasion of Ukraine by the USA, just as he said. It quotes Kissinger. Please would someone knowledgeable about all the details the writer mentions comment?

Opinion | The War in Ukraine May Be Impossible to Stop. And the U.S. Deserves Much of the Blame. - The New York Times

www.nytimes.com/2022/05/31/opinion/us-ukraine-putin-war.html

blueshoes · 31/05/2022 22:01

@TargusEasting and @MMBaranova , thanks for explaining about rationale for Ukraine forces withdrawing from Severodonetsk. Sad for civilians in that city but makes sense for forces to live to fight another day.

MMBaranova · 31/05/2022 22:02

I've looking (briefly) at reporting from different countries. Rossiya1 is as expected. The images of 'liberated' civilians in Severodonetsk have been taking over from captured Azov fighters and their tattoos.

France24 had this today, with English commentary overlaid.

www.france24.com/en/video/20220531-russia-presses-attacks-in-eastern-region-severodonetsk

ScrollingLeaves · 31/05/2022 22:06

This is where I saw and was able to read that troubling NYTimes article.

twitter.com/OstapYarysh/status/1531687198420082693?s=20&t=nrK9ZUWaZp3z1WiT1wWEnQ

Hillsmakeyoustrong · 31/05/2022 22:11

@MagicFox consider adding a head torch and a fleece onesie to your Amazon basket 😂

(Actually quite like the thought of a fleecy number)

MMBaranova · 31/05/2022 22:18

The New York Times article I haven't read.

I clicked the link and was asked to pay for rigorous journalism. Life is too short to spend more time on something that would probably annoy me.

However, I hold these truths to be self evident.

  1. The New York Times has an honourable history and reputation, but in recent years has been curious in what it publishes, to say the least.
  2. The USA isn't as responsible for pulling strings as some would like to be able to say.
  3. Putin has agency. He has been top banana of his banana federation since May 7th 2000. 22 years on and the USA pushes his buttons?
  4. It was the Czechs that made me take Sudetenland and then eventually the whole of the country. Sorry that slipped in.
  5. Kissinger has little to say now that has merit (not that he should be completely ignored). He's from another time and is running on autopilot. See also Chomsky.
Ijsbear · 31/05/2022 22:20

blueshoes it's not good to lose a town of course but it's also not entirely unexpected. The Russians have congregated a huge force there apparently and they still outnumber the Ukrainians by a long way and have more equipment. But the Ukrainians are canny and have attacked elsewhere now the Russian presence is much thinner, see the attacks not all that far from Kherson yesterday.

Trained strategists will be able to assess more tho! :)

ScrollingLeaves · 31/05/2022 22:42

@MMBaranova

ReThe New York Times article you couldn’t read. Thank you for your answer based on what I had said.

You may not want to try again to read it, and I am sure you would be annoyed if you did, but I was able to read it through the link to it in this Twitter post:

twitter.com/OstapYarysh/status/1531687198420082693?s=20&t=nrK9ZUWaZp3z1WiT1wWEnQ

TargusEasting · 31/05/2022 23:01

Listening to some music on loop as I am working tonight and I heard this song (my last song). It reminded me of that picture from Mariupol steelworks and the last Ukrainian soldier in those trenches from March. I just have to post the words this evening.

To dream the impossible dream,
To fight the unbeatable foe,
To bear with unbearable sorrow,
To run where the brave dare not go.

To right the unrightable wrong,
To love pure and chaste from afar,
To try when your arms are too weary,
To reach the unreachable star.

This is my quest,
To follow that star
No matter how hopeless,
No matter how far.

To fight for the right
Without question or pause,
To be willing to march
Into hell for a heavenly cause.

And I know if I'll only be true
To this glorious quest
That my heart will be peaceful and calm
When I'm laid to my rest.

And the world will be better for this,
That one man scorned and covered with scars
Still strove with his last ounce of courage.
To fight the unbeatable foe.
To reach the unreachable star.

blueshoes · 31/05/2022 23:09

Ijsbear · 31/05/2022 22:20

blueshoes it's not good to lose a town of course but it's also not entirely unexpected. The Russians have congregated a huge force there apparently and they still outnumber the Ukrainians by a long way and have more equipment. But the Ukrainians are canny and have attacked elsewhere now the Russian presence is much thinner, see the attacks not all that far from Kherson yesterday.

Trained strategists will be able to assess more tho! :)

Thank you, ljsbear. That is a nice of way of looking on the bright side.

OwlsDance · 31/05/2022 23:18

I've read the NY Times article. Or rather, the first third of it. I closed it down as soon they mentioned that Russia was provoked by Ukraine attempting to join NATO. Total BS that is pretty obvious by now.

My husband said a good 10 years ago, before even Crimea happened, that Putin will want to leave his legacy in restoring the former Russian empire/USSR. He's neither a politician nor a journalist, but he's got far more insight than whoever wrote this article.

blueshoes · 31/05/2022 23:22

TargusEasting · 31/05/2022 23:01

Listening to some music on loop as I am working tonight and I heard this song (my last song). It reminded me of that picture from Mariupol steelworks and the last Ukrainian soldier in those trenches from March. I just have to post the words this evening.

To dream the impossible dream,
To fight the unbeatable foe,
To bear with unbearable sorrow,
To run where the brave dare not go.

To right the unrightable wrong,
To love pure and chaste from afar,
To try when your arms are too weary,
To reach the unreachable star.

This is my quest,
To follow that star
No matter how hopeless,
No matter how far.

To fight for the right
Without question or pause,
To be willing to march
Into hell for a heavenly cause.

And I know if I'll only be true
To this glorious quest
That my heart will be peaceful and calm
When I'm laid to my rest.

And the world will be better for this,
That one man scorned and covered with scars
Still strove with his last ounce of courage.
To fight the unbeatable foe.
To reach the unreachable star.

Such touching meaningful lyrics. What does it mean to live those words, those brave brave Ukrainians.

ScrollingLeaves · 31/05/2022 23:23

@TargusEasting 23:01
Thank you for the song. How apt it is.

MMBaranova · 31/05/2022 23:24

I'm off for a while, needing to close down some things here, take some others with me virtually and prepare for a month working in the shadow of the Carpathians. This is so a colleague can spend a month in Bulgaria while I more or less do her job. I'd do it virtually if I could but I apparently need to be in an office with other people. It's strategic analysis for moving white goods, other freight, identifying opportunities and so on (nothing military), mostly in Slavic countries. Hopefully my flight won't be cancelled. I'll pop on here when I get the time. Until then stay engaged, strong and support Ukraine.

If this video plays (I was warned it was Adult and really it is anything but) it is a Welcome to Serverodonetsk from six years ago. The flag colour sports structure makes an appearance at 51 seconds, top right. What an awful, evil, senseless war has now rolled through this city.

vk.com/video-89970569_456239021

ScrollingLeaves · 01/06/2022 00:12

@MMBaranova 23:24
Thank you for the video of Serverodonetsk six years ago. It is like seeing a vanished dream now. This is indeed a senseless, evil war.

blueshoes · 01/06/2022 01:52

@MMBaranova It ached to see the Severodonetsk video. A fairytale world destroyed. For some reason, I was filled with a rage and felt like bombing Moscow and St Petersburg. How dare they (Putin).

Hope you can pop back from time to time and offer your insights. I will be keeping the faith for Ukraine. Hopefully not long now.

MagicFox · 01/06/2022 07:06

Statement by Biden on 'what America will and will not do in Ukraine' published in NY times. Paywalled so will copy here (I accessed through reader). https://www.nytimes.com/2022/05/31/opinion/biden-ukraine-strategy.html

The invasion Vladimir Putin thought would last days is now in its fourth month. The Ukrainian people surprised Russia and inspired the world with their sacrifice, grit and battlefield success. The free world and many other nations, led by the United States, rallied to Ukraine’s side with unprecedented military, humanitarian and financial support.
As the war goes on, I want to be clear about the aims of the United States in these efforts.
America’s goal is straightforward: We want to see a democratic, independent, sovereign and prosperous Ukraine with the means to deter and defend itself against further aggression.
As President Volodymyr Zelensky of Ukraine has said, ultimately this war “will only definitively end through diplomacy.” Every negotiation reflects the facts on the ground. We have moved quickly to send Ukraine a significant amount of weaponry and ammunition so it can fight on the battlefield and be in the strongest possible position at the negotiating table.
That’s why I’ve decided that we will provide the Ukrainians with more advanced rocket systems and munitions that will enable them to more precisely strike key targets on the battlefield in Ukraine.
We will continue cooperating with our allies and partners on Russian sanctions, the toughest ever imposed on a major economy. We will continue providing Ukraine with advanced weaponry, including Javelin anti-tank missiles, Stinger antiaircraft missiles, powerful artillery and precision rocket systems, radars, unmanned aerial vehicles, Mi-17 helicopters and ammunition. We will also send billions more in financial assistance, as authorized by Congress. We will work with our allies and partners to address the global food crisis that Russia’s aggression is worsening. And we will help our European allies and others reduce their dependence on Russian fossil fuels, and speed our transition to a clean energy future.

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MagicFox · 01/06/2022 07:22

Part 2

We will also continue reinforcing NATO’s eastern flank with forces and capabilities from the United States and other allies. And just recently, I welcomed Finland’s and Sweden’s applications to join NATO, a move that will strengthen overall U.S. and trans-Atlantic security by adding two democratic and highly capable military partners.
We do not seek a war between NATO and Russia. As much as I disagree with Mr. Putin, and find his actions an outrage, the United States will not try to bring about his ouster in Moscow. So long as the United States or our allies are not attacked, we will not be directly engaged in this conflict, either by sending American troops to fight in Ukraine or by attacking Russian forces. We are not encouraging or enabling Ukraine to strike beyond its borders. We do not want to prolong the war just to inflict pain on Russia.
My principle throughout this crisis has been “Nothing about Ukraine without Ukraine.” I will not pressure the Ukrainian government — in private or public — to make any territorial concessions. It would be wrong and contrary to well-settled principles to do so.
Ukraine’s talks with Russia are not stalled because Ukraine has turned its back on diplomacy. They are stalled because Russia continues to wage a war to take control of as much of Ukraine as it can. The United States will continue to work to strengthen Ukraine and support its efforts to achieve a negotiated end to the conflict.
Unprovoked aggression, the bombing of maternity hospitals and centers of culture, and the forced displacement of millions of people makes the war in Ukraine a profound moral issue. I met with Ukrainian refugees in Poland — women and children who were unsure what their lives would be, and whether the loved ones who stayed behind in Ukraine would be OK. No person of conscience could be unmoved by the devastation of these horrors.
Standing by Ukraine in its hour of need is not just the right thing to do. It is in our vital national interests to ensure a peaceful and stable Europe and to make it clear that might does not make right. If Russia does not pay a heavy price for its actions, it will send a message to other would-be aggressors that they too can seize territory and subjugate other countries. It will put the survival of other peaceful democracies at risk. And it could mark the end of the rules-based international order and open the door to aggression elsewhere, with catastrophic consequences the world over.
I know many people around the world are concerned about the use of nuclear weapons. We currently see no indication that Russia has intent to use nuclear weapons in Ukraine, though Russia’s occasional rhetoric to rattle the nuclear saber is itself dangerous and extremely irresponsible. Let me be clear: Any use of nuclear weapons in this conflict on any scale would be completely unacceptable to us as well as the rest of the world and would entail severe consequences.
Americans will stay the course with the Ukrainian people because we understand that freedom is not free. That’s what we have always done whenever the enemies of freedom seek to bully and oppress innocent people, and it is what we are doing now. Vladimir Putin did not expect this degree of unity or the strength of our response. He was mistaken. If he expects that we will waver or fracture in the months to come, he is equally mistaken.

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ScrollingLeaves · 01/06/2022 08:22

Thank you, Magic Fox for copying that New York Times publication of what President Biden said.

KonTikki · 01/06/2022 08:34

That is an impressive speech for Biden.
Clear and concise.

ScrollingLeaves · 01/06/2022 08:39

@MagicFox What is worrying me is that yesterday the NYT also published an article about Ukraine that may as well have been written by Putin.

I don’t have a subscription but I was able to read it where someone else posted it on Twitter even though I don’t have a Twitter account. Would it be illegal if I copied and pasted the NYT article myself?

katem98 · 01/06/2022 08:41

I think the speech is really important. It gives clear indication of what US is and isn't planning to do so no miscommunication.

MagicFox · 01/06/2022 08:50

The other NYT article has been roundly castigated and the author sent off with his tail between his legs. It's just one man's (Kremlin-based?) opinion. And it's an outlier. Biden's statement clarifies the US position very clearly and that was needed

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