Ukraine Invasion: Part 26

[MagicFox]

Here we are, on top of our rock

[katem98]

Thanks for new thread @MagicFox

[LoveLarry]

Thanks for the new thread

[RoseWineandCake]

Thanks for the new thread and thank you to all who contribute on it. This is still my go to throughout the day.

[blueshoes]

Magicfox thanks for the new thread. Still avidly reading all contributions.

[ShinyHat22]

@RoseWineandCake

Thanks for the new thread and thank you to all who contribute on it. This is still my go to throughout the day.

Me too, it is so informative.

[toastfiend]

Thanks @MagicFox, really appreciate your efforts in continuing this.

[notimagain]

Thanks for the new thread.

In the context of discussion of war crimes - I know a popular POV in some quarters is along the lines of this sort of behaviour is unthinkable these days but we're not that far down the road from the Balkans conflict.

There are still some who served on the UN/NATO side of things there who struggle to cope with some of the horrific things they witnessed.

[BringBackCoffeeCreams]

pmk

[Igotjelly]

Following on from the last thread. I really do think it’s important that we remember that there are truly wonderful people on this World too. I have personal experience of child sexual abuse unfortunately and EVERY SINGLE PERSON who supported me, professionals and otherwise, we’re 1000x more wonderful than the person who hurt me was terrible.

[blueshoes]

Igotjelly I am sorry for your childhood experience. It is reassuring to know that you can still see goodness in the world despite your traumatic time. I am so glad you got support and so grateful for people who would help alleviate suffering. They are the unsung heros in our world.

[MagicFox]

I echo that Blue, jelly

[MMBaranova]

What are the self critical Russians thinking. Strelkov posted a lot yesterday. Remember he is a vain war criminal. That doesn't mean he hasn't got a reasonable grasp of what is going on. This is a straight Google translate of a couple of key passages. I tidied up one term it could not handle [Dead End] and my Russian is not good enough to cope with the 'Concrete' mention..

At the beginning of the operation, the Russian Armed Forces just demonstrated highly maneuverable actions, deep strategic breakthroughs for tens or even hundreds of kilometers. Which ended in a “bump” for reasons that I have repeatedly called and described. (Initially, a fundamentally wrong assessment of the operational situation, put in the basis of military planning and associated with this assessment an extreme lack of forces and means to consolidate and control the territory passed, etc.). However, despite the resulting discouraging “semi-failure” (in the south, the “run to the border” did not follow) the first stage of the operation - it (compared to the “Second Concrete”) [specific part?] looks much more “alive” than the “bloody pull-pull” into which the fighting degenerated from the end of April to this day. Simply because at the first stage there was no conscious purposeful and even “in advance of the famous” by the near-military “experts” plugging the active army into a STRATEGIC TUPIC [dead end]. Military decisions were bold and aimed at achieving a decisive victory. While even the FULL success (which is not seen in the near future) of the second stage will at best only lead to costly (in terms of losses in people and equipment) relatively small territorial acquisitions achieved by the enemy's EXTENSION [replacement / expulsion] from the territory of Donbass.

vk.com/wall-129997795_194487

[MMBaranova]

Continued. LDNR means Luhansk + Donetsk Oblasts in their entirety as pro-Russia Republics.

Imagine for a while that the enemy in the next few weeks will still be completely defeated by continuous frontal and flank attacks and completely knocked out of the LDNR. - And? - What's that gonna do? Will this end the war? - No, not at all. At most, it will reduce the front line somewhat and nothing more. Let's say the enemy will suffer great losses (he still bears them). But in these few weeks he will be able (due to ongoing mobilizations) to prepare new fresh reserves. Moreover - he has these reserves already ! - The enemy is so confident in the strategic stability of his front (on which the surrender of 1-2 settlements in 2-3 days has no influence) that he continues to keep a relatively large group on the border with Transnistria and even created a new (several army BTG) on the border with Belarus. And continues to form new units and connections both in the deep rear and in those left by the Russian troops during the “run to the border”. Sumy and Chernihiv regions.

That is, when our weakened by the heaviest battles and bloody assaults, the units will come to the borders of the LDNR - they will be met by fresh and well-equipped units of the Armed Forces on the lines prepared in advance for defense. And even if these fresh formations do not want (for some reason) to seize the initiative and launch a counter-offensive (one or more) - still the Russian Federation will face the prospect of a long positional war - a war almost (with reservation - in the current realities) deadly for our economy, social and socio-political stability.

[ScrollingLeaves]

Thank you for the new thread.

@Igotjelly
I am so very sorry to hear that you experienced child sexual abuse. What you say about the people who helped you being more wonderful than the abuser was horrible gives hope. I think you must be a very person with immense charity, and the people around you too.💐♥️


@blueshoes · 20/05/2022 10:22
MMBaranova
“The video apparently was truncated and there's a bit more here. The presenter says some totally nutjob things about the Bidens and Romneys. That's an RT type mindset.”

MMBaranova from what little I could bear to watch on the video, the Nazi paraphernalia in the so-called Azov HQ looks new(ly planted) and suspiciously similar to the sort in the Sims 3 Cards x 3 set up of the earlier Russian farce. As minsmum says, Azov would be deeply stupid to leave this evidence lying around knowing they would be prime targets for propaganda and capture.

I find it chilling the way the video was done like a piece of investigative journalism with that American bloke and lady who looked like she might be a academic. Ultimately it is Russian propaganda.

I was a bit more taken in than you because of Nikkita’s more rational tone, but I did think it was odd to think Azov would leave all those identity cards with photos we saw laid out on the table.

[katem98]

Sorry to hear that @Igotjelly

[PerkingFaintly]

[MMBaranova]

A post I was making on Belarus TV vanished in a Mumsnet blip. I might summon the strength later.

I see that Azov Steel holdout defender Orest says that he has made his last post from the place of his death.

Regarding the Azov HQ/training facility video: it and others are spreading like wildfire in Russia to validate the anti-Nazi aspect of the Special Military Operation. The makers of the one I noticed are fellow-travelling RT-ites. Whether the site is genuine and the extent to which items are laid out by the Russians (the ID cards and Black Sun t-shirt clearly were) the material is in line with the Azov of 2014 at least. I have largely avoided looking at them since then.

Back in late 2013 when I spent a couple of days wandering around the Euromaydan protests in Kyiv I did meet and chat to some Svoboda guys. That was the Social-National Party that rebranded itself and Azov took the insignia from. They were pleasant, polite and earnest and didn't say anything that gave away the less savoury aspects of their political heritage. Since then Svoboda's fate has been to wither and I can't spot any notable extreme rightists in the Rada apart from one constituency MP who managed to be elected. The Svoboda + Right Sector etc. list got 2% of the national vote in 2019, which is probably about right as an indicator of the extreme right - fascist - neo-Nazi element in Ukraine.

[RedToothBrush]

katem98 · 20/05/2022 09:35
Thank you both. It's truly awful and I can't even comprehend it. I think I've genuinely been so naive with these sort of things happening and I just feel total shock! I think I've too been living under a rock for my whole lift it seems. It's all so senseless

I had that innocence taken away from me as a child. I think that once you've seen it, you can't unsee it. It changes your whole world view.

I think the way I've processed it, isn't to dwell on the awfulness. I read it, take it in and am horrified by it. But for me the story isn't about the acts of terror and brutality. The real story is in the stories that go hand in hand with that of selflessness and bravery. Of sacrifice and of honour. The greatest acts of humanity accompany the greatest acts of savagery. Those who endeavour and endure. And I think they tend to be much more common and widespread. Naturally they are not reported in the same way and the tendacy is to only see the evil - it manifests now in click bait.

More poor are good people than are bad people ultimately. There are always those who run towards the danger if help is needed.

And there is something that unites us in this, no matter where we live in the world. When you think about even Russia, many of those support the war, because they've been feed a diet of understanding they are the good guys fighting against evil. Putin has to sell what the army does in a particular way. He has to sanitise it. Because people want to believe they are doing the right thing. Part of the cognitive dissonance about refusing to believe that awful things are happening is because people would then have to confront the issue that they are the 'bad guys' and they've done something desparately awful. In this sense this is why Putin might try and do show trials for the Azov because he has to 'demonstrate' the evilness of Nazis. Those who exploit do so in secret. They go to great lengths to conceal their actions. They force the silence of others through fear and intimidation. They would no have need to do this if they were a majority and their views were shared by the majority.

The big thing with people who do evil things is often deliberately seek out positions of power so the effects of what they do are amplified. Or they have been conditioned in a particular way - perhaps by the desparation of poverty mixed with a personal experience and normalised pattern of violence. The latter do not tend to be naturally bad. Even the former tend to be a product of whats gone before not an innate thing or they have become corrupted by greed and the feeling of extreme control over others. That in itself is reassuring. It means that acts of goodness have value and are important. They help to break the cycle.

Generally speaking a mother wants to feed her child and keep them safe no matter where they are in the world. This is constant and unwaivering. There are exceptions but they still remain vanishing rare in statisical terms. Of course this in its self is a sentiment which can be weaponised to do harm, but the underlaying desire tends to remain the same.

Humans do awful things, but we must keep this in the context of the amazing wonderful things they do to. And the scale of those acts of kindness. This war is unremarkable for that. It is the reality that stops you going crazy and makes you value you preciousness of life and how you have also a responsibility to make the best of what you have.

Humans are monsters. But they also will protect the life of a stranger at risk to themselves too. There are few animals which would do this, beyond the instinct of protecting their family.

[ScrollingLeaves]

@katem98 · 20/05/2022 09:35
@heldinadream @MagicFox Thank you both. It's truly awful and I can't even comprehend it.
(On thread 25 about the horrifying report on a Twitter thread)

I feel the same but Ijsbear’s answer on the last thread that we must remember all the people who are loving to children and do everything they can to look after them was wise. And Igotjelly’s saying that with help and love she knows from her own experience that there is hope for those children is something to hold on to.

[saltedcaramelchocolate]

Following

[ScrollingLeaves]

Thank you RedToothBrush, what you say about the inherent good in people overall, is so well put and gives hope.

[BringBackCoffeeCreams]

The thing is, for every horror story of humanity at it worst there will be hundreds of it at its best. But they won't get the same coverage.

Like the man who stole a car to get his family out of the front line. He noticed a car with the keys in the ignition. Watched it for a few hours and when nobody came back he took it and got all his family out. But he felt bad so tracked down the owner to confess and apologise. Turned out the owner had several cars and had deliberately left them with the keys in so others could use them to escape. I proper sobbed when I read that article but never saw it in the mainstream press.

[Ijsbear]

Yes, beautifully written RTB

[MagicFox]

I think there is a visceral fear amongst people about 'us next'. I spoke to a friend the other day who has a 3 year old son and she was tormenting herself with imagining him growing up to be conscripted and forced to fight. It's hard to know what to say, I've had the same horrible imaginings. I think a lot of people are almost struggling to be grateful for what they have because they fear it could be taken away. Watching and reading about evil happening to innocents inevitably leads to identification. I don't know what the answer is in terms of coping with that but I totally get the feeling. As RTB says, looking at the cracks of light might be the way

[Ijsbear]

ISW: Key Takeaways


Russian forces are intensifying operations to advance north and west of Popasna in preparation for an offensive toward Severodonetsk.

Russian and proxy authorities in Mariupol are struggling to establish coherent administrative control of the city.

Russian forces reportedly attempted to regain control of the settlements they lost during the Ukrainian counteroffensive north of Kharkiv City.

Russian forces are bolstering their naval presence around Snake Island to fortify their grouping on the island.

+++

Kyiv Independent:

⚡️Reuters: US wants to give Ukraine “advanced anti-ship missiles” to defeat Russia's naval blockade.

This blockade is preventing grain ships leaving and all sorts of trouble.

⚡️Court grants permission to arrest former Ukrainian President Viktor Yanukovych.

⚡️Zelensky: Donbas 'completely destroyed.'

⚡️Russian forces conduct false-flag operations in southern Ukraine.

Ukraine’s Operational Command “South” said on May 19 that Russian forces continue to shell occupied Kherson. They are reportedly using Russian air defense systems to shoot down their own missiles to give the impression Ukraine’s Armed Forces are bombing civilians.

⚡️UK Intelligence: At least 1,700 Ukrainian soldiers have surrendered from Azovstal.

+++

From UkraineNOW

◾️The main efforts of the enemy concentrated on the Donetsk direction, where they have used aircraft, artillery and mortars.

Near Sieverodonetsk, the enemy conducted assault operations, suffered losses and retreated to previously occupied positions.

⚡️State Agency for Tourism Development of Ukraine (SATD) will become a member of the European Tourism Commission [but presumably not right now]

💙💛 Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelensky has become the most influential person of the year according to Time readers.

🦧💚 The Kyiv Zoo is blooming again after being closed during the battles with the Russian invaders for the capital.

✊🏻 "Well, that's all. Thank you for the shelter, Azovstal – the place of my death and my life."

Dmitry Kozatsky, a soldier of the Azov Regiment, callsign Orest, shared what is likely to be the last photographs from the territory of the blocked metallurgical plant in Mariupol.