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Original poster

2 years in prison for a child's life?

47 replies

Georgyporky · 27/04/2022 18:34

How are prison sentences determined?
The woman who was drunk, speeding, didn't fit the seatbelts on her 2 young children, then crashed into a lorry, has been sentenced to 4 years for the death of the 2.

OP posts:
ChocBloc · 27/04/2022 18:48

What was she charged with?

AnyFucker · 27/04/2022 18:52

That woman admitted what she did and has shown a huge amount of remorse

I imagine she will be punished lifelong in her own head, whether she is in prison or not

ChocBloc · 27/04/2022 18:52

There's a sentencing guideline for the offence and then the judge follows that and adds up/takes off time for the aggravating/mitigating factors. And then take of time already spent.

Georgeskitchen · 27/04/2022 18:53

Death by careless driving under the influence of alcohol. That wasn't careless that was dangerous and its about time these people who do this were charged with manslaughter at the very least

Countdownis35 · 27/04/2022 18:54

AnyFucker · 27/04/2022 18:52

That woman admitted what she did and has shown a huge amount of remorse

I imagine she will be punished lifelong in her own head, whether she is in prison or not

True. But where was she going drunk with her kids in the first place? Its not good enough when you ask the question like that.

BernadetteRostankowskiWolowitz · 27/04/2022 18:54

She killed her own children as a direct consequence of drink driving. She will (hopefully) live with the guilt of they forever. Prison isn't only a punishment, nor is it the only punishment.

As long as she has a lifelong driving ban, then that and the guilt is a suitable punishment imo.

Usually when people are put into prison for a long time it's because they are a danger to others if they remain free. The judge clearly doesn't think this woman is a danger to anyone else.

BernadetteRostankowskiWolowitz · 27/04/2022 18:57

Georgeskitchen · 27/04/2022 18:53

Death by careless driving under the influence of alcohol. That wasn't careless that was dangerous and its about time these people who do this were charged with manslaughter at the very least

I think if deaths caused by drunk driving were classified as Manslaughter, then what do you charge people who drink drive and luckily don't kill anyone? Attempted manslaughter?

Rookiemistake · 27/04/2022 18:59

What purpose does it serve to send her to prison for a long time? I'm sure she is punishing herself as it is.

1000yellowdaisies · 27/04/2022 19:00

AnyFucker · 27/04/2022 18:52

That woman admitted what she did and has shown a huge amount of remorse

I imagine she will be punished lifelong in her own head, whether she is in prison or not

She still needs to be punished. If feels like whenever a parent is neglectful and and a child ends up killed, mauled by a dog or car accident etc... it feels like the people are full of 'they have suffered enough' or 'no punishment will be greater than a lifetime of guilt' blah blah blah....

She drank then drove with her children unrestrained, its absolutely moronic and if she had cared about them at all she would have fastened them in or not driven at all. She should have got longer

BernadetteRostankowskiWolowitz · 27/04/2022 19:04

She still needs to be punished

she is - she has a custodial sentence.

She drank then drove with her children unrestrained, its absolutely moronic and if she had cared about them at all she would have fastened them in or not driven at all

or not got drunk when in sole charge. Of course what she did was wrong. I highly doubt anyone on Mumsnet would attempt to minimise what she did.

She should have got longer

The guidelines for sentencing are available online and set out in a specific way to show starting points for custodial sentences. One of the mitigations against a longer term is that the person who was killed was a close friend or relative, so I assume the judge applied these guidelines when considering the sentence.

We can't just have rogue judges handing out sporadical lengths of custodial sentences however they like.

TheChocotastic · 27/04/2022 19:05

AnyFucker · 27/04/2022 18:52

That woman admitted what she did and has shown a huge amount of remorse

I imagine she will be punished lifelong in her own head, whether she is in prison or not

But... that means anyone can just drive drunk, even intentionally, and feign (or not) remorse. Like pp said, there still needs to be a formal punishment upheld by the justice system.

Can't just say "aw look how sad she is, she learnt her lesson", otherwise you're essentially decriminalising it. Anyone can do it and just say they're sad and be let off. Consequences for deaths, even when is your own kids, and even if it wasn't intentional.

BertieBotts · 27/04/2022 19:09

Genuine question, why? What would it achieve?

It's not going to make the children come back to life.

Most people are not going around thinking it's a great idea to drive drunk with children in the car or not use seatbelts. Big punishment or not, nobody needs a deterrent for this, you just wouldn't do it. She must have had some serious problems to even think of doing it in the first place.

I doubt she is going to run off into the sunset gloating that she's got away with it.

There's no sense in sending people to prison forever just because.

Discovereads · 27/04/2022 19:12

It’s because she did not get in the car with the intent to crash and kill her children. The very first thing she said after the accident was oh why didn’t I put their seat belts on!. Lack of intent to kill means it’s not murder.

another manslaughter case with sentencing pending is Hakeem Hussain who’s mum who neglected him and he then died of an asthma attack because his mum had converted his asthma inhaler to a crack pipe, smoked a bunch of crack and then passed out so did not notice when her son woke up with an asthma attack and crawled outside to look for help. He died in the freezing garden that night.

all so desperately sad.

AnyFucker · 27/04/2022 19:16

She is being punished. 4 years (although I doubt she will serve the full term) is a lot of time to sit in a cell reflecting on how you killed your own children.

She will need protection in prison, I doubt anyone will be palling up with her. She will spend the term in fear and shame.

Nobody wins more here by locking her up for longer. She isn’t a danger to society and she doesn’t need “rehabilitating” as she has learned the ultimate lesson.

I think she should serve the full term though. “Good behaviour” early release means nothing here (as it often doesn’t)

crummyscrumpkin · 27/04/2022 19:19

Genuine question, why? What would it achieve?

Punishment and reflection imo. No jail time is bringing any dead person back- we still use it. Unless you're saying she should just be let off completely after killing two kids... it should be longer. Everyone knows not to drink and drive, everyone knows to Wear seatbelts. If somebody genuinely made a mistake even driving but was generally aware and paying attention, it would be a different story, of course.

Original poster
Georgyporky · 27/04/2022 19:19

"I doubt she is going to run off into the sunset gloating that she's got away with it."

She tried.

OP posts:
crummyscrumpkin · 27/04/2022 19:20

I think she should serve the full term though.

Why for years but no longer? It's just an arbitrary number plucked by a judge. It's all or nothing, if a sentence is distressing it shouldn't be used at all

TheSillyMastiff · 27/04/2022 19:22

I mean anyone can appeal a unduly leniant sentence there's a link on the gov.uk website if you want . Any member of the public can ask for a review by contacting the attorney general's office.

However, she will serve 12 months in custody, she will then be on licence, and then the ramifications of this offence will follow her for life. So although her "custodial" may seem low, she has the rest of her life to deal with this. Locking her up for it for double digits will only cost the tax payer more on the long term but not actually "change" anything in the long run.

Prisons are not just punishment, they are rehabilitation and there for public safety to house dangerous/repeat offenders. She is not a prolific offender who is at risk to the general public from a violent offence, so a long custodial won't really do much in this case. She also can never drive again so risk to public safety is further reduced/minimised.

The judge will have also been bound by the sentencing guidelines on this one, and sadly drink driving related deaths because of the charge just don't have lengthy sentencing guidelines.

TheSillyMastiff · 27/04/2022 19:25

Correction 24 months not 12. She's eligible for release at the half way as it's not a Extended sentence or need for parole. Application for parole is generally eligible at 2/3rds of the sentence. Extended sentence is always served in the community after the custodial has expired.

AnyFucker · 27/04/2022 19:25

She tried

what did she try ?

Efortyjive · 27/04/2022 19:26

It's grim isn't it, someone killed my neighbour drunk driving, they got a driving ban for 12 months and that's it. The excuse was that they'd had an argument with their boyfriend and needed to go to a friends, she'd had a bottle of wine to drink so of course boo hoo in front of the judge. Disgusting.

changeyourusernameag · 27/04/2022 19:28

She tried to run away and was missing for a week

she should be left in prison until she can’t have anymore children as by the time she comes out she will be under 40 and every chance she will go and have more kids

TheSillyMastiff · 27/04/2022 19:31

AnyFucker · 27/04/2022 19:25

She tried

what did she try ?

She didn't report back whilst on bail after the funerals and went missing for a week, at which point a warrant for her arrest was issued by the looks of things.

It's all a very sad and tragic case, perhaps a sentencing review for death by drink driving needs to be had in all honesty because time after time the sentences do appear unduly leniant to the public, but there isn't much a judge can do only in really really exceptional circumstances can they go above the sentencing guidelines.

BertieBotts · 27/04/2022 19:32

I don't know if I agree with jail in general except as a method of removing somebody dangerous from access to the public, although I freely admit that I haven't given this a great deal of thought so I do not know what I would advocate for instead in cases like this.

Punishment IMO isn't an aim in and of itself. What is the aim of punishment? Do you mean retribution, ie, that it is fair that she suffer as a form of balance for the suffering and loss she caused to the children? I don't know if this makes sense as a concept to me (does it make it fair? I don't think it does) but I can see if you do see it this way, two years each seems very very little.

I wasn't really aware that prisons are great places of reflection. Are they?