If one member of DoE expedition is a weak walker

[lljkk]

Any stories, did this risk happen in your DC's group, How did things turn out?

This is my 3rd DC to do DoE bronze, but I wasn't aware of this situation before (there were other challenges, tbf). Someone in DC's group is looking rather unprepared for expedition (final). I think they may struggle with carrying heavy load for long distances. Unprep-kid seems perfectionist, not one who will have resilience to grit teeth &/or get thru by depending on others. What happens if they can't manage? I know the other kids will try to carry their stuff & chivvy the unprepared kid along, but what happens to expedition if Unprep-kid wants to give up walking completely. Does it matter that the unprepared kid is technically the 'leader' ?

DD had to get a lift in a car on day 2 of her practice silver expedition, but she managed all walking ok for the final. Zero interest in doing Gold, though (!)

It depends a lot on who is running the expedition and what facilities / resources they have to look after both the ones who carry on at the same time as the one that doesn't.
You have to have between 4 and 7 in a DofE group, so if you start with 5, 6, or 7, then the others can carry on.
Generally, with Bronze, they don't tend to be miles away and you would hope a parents would come and collect anyone who couldn't carry on (usually an injury). If they can't / won't, then the Leaders have to make the call as to what they need to do.
Of course, this is generally with an injury. The Leaders shouldn't be letting anyone start who isn't prepared / is genuinely not expected to be able to manage / has an attitude problem without having risk assessed it. I mean the Bronze isn't really that testing.

To some extent this is what these challenges are about, although the children, understandably, don't necessarily see it that way.

Once they've done all they can, if the child isn't able to continue then there will be rules on who to contact and what to do.

My nephew had this at ten told and a team member dropped out. There was a system, they followed it to keep them all safe, and then finished as a team with one fewer members. I think they got individual credit not team credit for finishing.

So, basically, make sure they know the rules in advance for all sorts of reasons. Then they can implement if necessary. It may turn out they just have to be slow to complete.

Thanks -- I will update later this week to say how it went (!)

The bronze is easy enough for almost any walker. DD just finished gold, that is hardcore. Bronze will be fine for most kids.

Admittedly it’s been a good 15 years since I did mine so maybe things have changed, but do you really need much prep for Bronze? I was in a group with 4 of my very non sporty friends and I don’t think any of us did any practice or preparation, we managed fine. I was a bit panicked when I felt how heavy the bag was but it was totally manageable once we got going.

Completely agree @riotlady. What's your concern OP if it isn't your child who is the weak walker?

One of the girls on my bronze about a millennium ago had really bad period pains, and the rest of us took turns in pairs to carry her rucksack. As a group, you should walk at the pace of the slowest, however frustrating this can be for the others.

The biggest risk for unpractical walkers is likely to be blisters, so knowing how to manage them will be useful.

The simple answer to that question is that all the kids will be affected by it or even be put at risk.

How well they manage the situation as a team depends on the kids alone as there will not be an adult to help them out for miles.

I know of a case of a child with a disability who could walk well but had issues communicating with others and a proper temper. She was not meant to be the leader but by keeping hold of the map and refusing to hand it back, the group was lost for 5 hours, got short of water and a kid told me that at some point they seriously considered tackling her down to get hold of the map. They didn’t, but it was traumatic for the kids and they felt let down by the organisers as, by “ensuring” inclusivity without providing any adaptations they all had been put at risk.

I think that some times we take inclusion too far, as in forgetting to provide the support required by the kid insisting they would manage without it. If this kid has difficulties walking they have to organise for more check in points, provide extra water and above all, not assume that the other kids should act as their porters, it already difficult for them carrying so much equipment for that long. They should have someone following them so if the kid needs to stop, there is some adult on hand who can take that kid to safety while the others continue ahead. Assuming that everything will be fine it is just irresponsible towards all the kids in the expedition.

My DD is less than 5ft and was around 6st when she did her DoE. On the practice, they hadn't balanced out the weight of rucksacks evenly and she had the heaviest (it was pointed out if this happened in the real thing, they'd fail so). She managed despite the first 30mins being a 1:4 gradient.

Does it matter that the unprepared kid is technically the 'leader' ?
Who has decided they are the leader and how can they be when so unprepared?

The whole DoE is also about supporting each other so that you finish as a group.
Thats where leadership skills come into play.

it helps when there is a leader in the group but they don’t need to have one. More about being able to support each other to be able to get through it.

Fwiw I don’t think there is a ‘leader’ in a DoE group. Or rather there might be one on paper but it doesn’t mean all responsibility are on their shoulders. It shouldn’t be really.

I only ever did the bronze practice walk...over 15 years ago. My friend wore the most unsuitable shoes (her mums ancient "walking" shoes) and subsequently had the most horrendous blisters. Our group got massively lost and we walked about 25km in one day as we kept having to double back on ourselves. The route we used had apparently been used before for the expedition, but it became obvious it was completely out of date (private land, missing footpaths etc).

During the trek my friend didn't flake out and was determined to keep going, but it was close. She ended up walking at a snails pace, wincing along. The group were getting fustrated and kept marching off leaving her trailing behind and sometimes out of sight. I kept having to run back and forth between my friend and the rest of the group to ensure we didn't lose her (it was close at times). We arrived at the camp so late in the evening and the instructors were just like "oh there you are..."

It was awful. Subsequently didn't do the rest of the DoE award. Also my school just seemed to push it onto all the kids who ordinarily weren't engaged in school...so it was just chaos.

Not a DoE person. Just a walker.

My questions would be what does the scheme do to prepare teams for the walk.

Are they informed re proper equipment. First aid, appropriate footwear, clothing for changes in weather.

Do they question the young people re physical fitness? There's an assumption that young people are fit, but if they don't participate in active PE sessions or pursue any sport, there's a real chance that a person may struggle with hill walking. Again a significant proportion of young people may have eating disorders and/or be overweight which may affect their ability to do physical tasks.

It would also be useful if a group - either with or without input from an adult - discussed how to manage the expedition in advance. Who is used to walking? To map reading? Who is naturally fast-paced? It's a good idea if those who think they may be slower, state this so that there can be a realistic time plan. This time plan will also have to be modified if weather deteriorates nearer the time. Walking over slippery, sodden ground takes longer.

Can you check whether they have a medical condition that makes them a weak walker?

I ask this as I went on a bank holiday hike with dh's Explorers, and one Explorer barely made it 3 miles in before turning back. The rest of the group were already miles ahead as dh and I stayed with her. I remarked to fh that she looked extremely pale and wondered whether she had anaemia or an undiagnosed heart condition, as she was out of breath as soon as she started ascending, and was barely able to put together 50 steps before needing a rest.

The adult leader will need to make a decision about whether this person is physically fit enough and experienced enough to go on the expedition. dh had to withdraw someone due to them repeatedly missing out on hikes.

On DS gold walking and camping trip he carried both his own and a girls rucksack at one point as she just could not manage. This was very much hiking terrain in The Peak District and was for a week.

How was this group put together, is it through school? DS was through cadets so they were all out marching, playing sport and doing assault courses all the time. So apart from that one small section they were all ok but all used to physical activity.

That’s why they have the practice walk/expedition though.
As this is the final expedition, I’m assuming the weaker walker has managed the practice so should be able to cope.

@CharSiu my dc was in a similar situation. The conditions turned bad and really hard work. I think the people keeping an eye on them thought they would give up many times (incl due to some of the group being close to hypothermia). The stronger ones gave up some clothes, carried more stuff etc…

As @JennieLee said, there was an issue with not having the proper gear for the time of the year. And conditions that were worse than planned.

That was a couple of years ago on the gold DoE. Once the shock subsided, dc kept some nice memories of it (the ones who really struggled not so much but they learnt to be more careful re planning for bad weather!)

@MarriedThreeChildren Practice expeditions are no longer a requirement at bronze due to covid, so a lot of schools and groups have dropped them to save time and money (don't get me started on just how stupid that is !) So it's quite possible this is the first proper hike they've done.

DD has just had a one day practice walk with a small daybag. She has no practice expedition, just the real thing in July. She is quite worried about it.b

I think it is appalling not to go on a practise walk. If the school is not offering this, could a parent who is a reasonably walker, put something together for/with the group. (So many young people will have no relevant experience unless they come from families/belong to youth groups that do hiking.)

I think if this is a done as an informal group of friends, there is no need for insurance cover.- it should be made clear to other parents/partcipants it is done at their own risk. (But in fact, if organised well it will reduce the risk of the assessed walk considerably.)

🤦‍♀️🤦‍♀️

a bit panicked when I felt how heavy the bag was but it was totally manageable once we got going.

Hopefully will work out like that (!)

DS will be unhappy if his friend can't continue. I guess I don't know the less-prepared kid but was afraid the group would feel too guilty to try to continue without LPK. They didn't do a practice... apparently LPK is about 5 stone so disadvantaged perhaps.

DofE is supposed to be a challenge. The level of challenge will depend on the skills and strengths of the group. Sometimes in a group you have students who are more physical able, or more used to being in the countryside, the challenge then for them is to support their friends in the group and work out what the best solution is so that the team is successful.

The requirement to do a practice expedition at Bronze level was removed in 2019 (pre-covid).

See.

www.dofe.org/wp-content/uploads/2019/04/20-Conditions-of-the-Expedition-section-variations-2019.pdf

A rucksack should not weigh more than 25% of a participants bodyweight. (although this is more of a recommendation than a rule). The bigger challenge that the weight for smaller participants is getting a rucksack with a short enough back that it can actually fit properly.

See www.dofe.org/shopping/everything-you-need-to-know-about-packing-your-expedition-rucksack/#:~:text=The%20first%20thing%20to%20do,must%20be%20weighed%20before%20departure.

For someone who is 6 stone it is perfectly possible to pack a rucksack for 1 night that is less than 25% of their bodyweight, 5 stone not so much.
That leaves a couple of options - spread the weight out among the group, or if they are all small, transport some of it to the campsite for them.

I am rather alarmed by the tale of the group with one map between them. If I were assessing a group with one map then they would fail, because self evidently they had not come equipped for the expedition, and the staff responsible for them would have got a rocket.

That's shocking.
Potentially quite dangerous.
I'd like to see their risk assessment.

Are they informed re proper equipment. First aid, appropriate footwear, clothing for changes in weather.

They should be, but unfortunately too many schools don't put the time into this, and try to push people through like a production line, rather than actually taking the time to do DofE properly.

I would count yourself lucky if your dc go to a school that has staff prepared to give up their evenings and weekends for free to run the Award at all.