If one member of DoE expedition is a weak walker

[lljkk]

Any stories, did this risk happen in your DC's group, How did things turn out?

This is my 3rd DC to do DoE bronze, but I wasn't aware of this situation before (there were other challenges, tbf). Someone in DC's group is looking rather unprepared for expedition (final). I think they may struggle with carrying heavy load for long distances. Unprep-kid seems perfectionist, not one who will have resilience to grit teeth &/or get thru by depending on others. What happens if they can't manage? I know the other kids will try to carry their stuff & chivvy the unprepared kid along, but what happens to expedition if Unprep-kid wants to give up walking completely. Does it matter that the unprepared kid is technically the 'leader' ?

DD had to get a lift in a car on day 2 of her practice silver expedition, but she managed all walking ok for the final. Zero interest in doing Gold, though (!)

I’m actually wondering if DofE is really worth doing. My DDs did bronze and did it because their friends were. DD1 went with Chinese girls who had never walked in the countryside but they were great at noodle cooking. It went well and they all pulled together.

DD2s expedition was somewhat bizarre. The girl with the emergency whistle blew it (quite a lot!) in exuberance/relief 100m before the finish. The staff obviously heard it and as they girls finished they disqualified all of them. I gather the disqualified innocent ones were very angry snd said they couldn’t stop the whistle blower or take it off her. The staff said they were all to blame and all liable for inappropriate whistle blowing! They did get reinstated after being interviewed but not the whistle blower. DD was livid about the whole thing.

it’s great if you want to push yourself but it can be difficult to organise and comes from an era when exam results didn’t matter. Maybe it should disappear into the sunset like it’s founder?

I am new to all of this...DD characteristically vague...does the school help plan? I don't know how much involvement I should have as a parent?

When I did my Gold award (though it was in the late 90s) I did the Exploration instead of Expedition option which meant I only had to carry lunch but I had to do a written/research project alongside the trek (think Ecology of the Peak District, Geology of the Brecon Beacons, that kind of thing). No idea if that's still an option but if so, could this kid do that and save holding up the rest of the group? The rest of my group were all doing the usual expedition so you could mix and match. I've no idea why I couldn't deal with carrying all the crap at the time, I've spent decades since as a seasoned hiker and wild camper with no probs! But the Exploration option let me still join in and not hold everyone back.

I would count yourself lucky if your dc go to a school that has staff prepared to give up their evenings and weekends for free to run the Award at all.

I don't think schools should offer the Dof E if it is a tickbox exercise to make the school look good, rather than centering learning - and safeguarding - for the children involved. While I completely agree that learning takes place through challenges and things going wrong, it is irresponsible not to prepare inexperienced young people for responding the sorts of difficulties that can arise in unfamiliar terrain and in variable weather condtions.

If the experience proves to be a really unpleasant one for the people involved - if they then conclude the walking in the open countryside is simply physically unpleasant, unpredictable and scary - the larger objective of enabling people to become resilient, healthy adventurous adults who are happy in a variety of environments is lost.

@GetThatHelmetOn

The simple answer to that question is that all the kids will be affected by it or even be put at risk.

How well they manage the situation as a team depends on the kids alone as there will not be an adult to help them out for miles.

I know of a case of a child with a disability who could walk well but had issues communicating with others and a proper temper. She was not meant to be the leader but by keeping hold of the map and refusing to hand it back, the group was lost for 5 hours, got short of water and a kid told me that at some point they seriously considered tackling her down to get hold of the map. They didn’t, but it was traumatic for the kids and they felt let down by the organisers as, by “ensuring” inclusivity without providing any adaptations they all had been put at risk.

I think that some times we take inclusion too far, as in forgetting to provide the support required by the kid insisting they would manage without it. If this kid has difficulties walking they have to organise for more check in points, provide extra water and above all, not assume that the other kids should act as their porters, it already difficult for them carrying so much equipment for that long. They should have someone following them so if the kid needs to stop, there is some adult on hand who can take that kid to safety while the others continue ahead. Assuming that everything will be fine it is just irresponsible towards all the kids in the expedition.

I absolutely agree that blind inclusion often puts other children at risk. Unpopular opinion but it's just so common.

100% agree @JennieLee

I would count yourself lucky if your dc go to a school that has staff prepared to give up their evenings and weekends for free to run the Award at all.
I totally disagree, @jgw1 . Sending young people out walking, who are ill prepared is nothing to be admired. Quite the opposite.
I am someone who volunteers, and my dh spends many, many, many hours, weekends and even weeks teaching people how to safely enjoy hill walking, navigating, first aid, working as a group, camping, dealing with emergencies and generally how to safely enjoy the great outdoors. A school sending unprepared children out without giving them the skills to know what to do is akin to pushing a non-swimmer into a swimming pool. Not something I feel I should 'appreciate' at all. Even if they all get back safely, they will never want to camp or hill walk again, which is the complete opposite of what the scheme is about.

On any adult led walking holiday - I've been on many - there will be detailed descriptions about the degree of challenge involved to ensure people opt for holidays on the right level.. Group leaders on the sorts of holidays that offer a choice of activities/ different levels of challenge will also have no hesitation in telling walkers who, clearly are not sufficiently fit, that they will not be able to undertake any further strenuous walks.

Our nearest school has that attitude and it defeats the objective of the scheme, not just the expedition which most complete as the sociable part, but in having the personal skill to sort out and complete the other sections which is where most struggle.

I didn't complete all sections of Bronze and it was a life lesson to sort myself out for Silver (as someone very un-sporty, the Physical was my nemisis). I went on to complete Gold. Out of 80 that chose to do the Bronze Qualifying, 25 went on to participate in Gold, but only about 8 of us completed all sections and made it to the Palace. That bit was my mantra trudging through the sodden Lake District with an oversized, over-weight rucksack (I was small, women's rucksacks weren't mainstream, and I couldn't get the required gear under a third of my body weight), and I muttered "I will make it to the Palace, I will make it to the Palace".

The benefits of the Award can be enormous, but you have to have the personal motivation to want to do it.

I am rather alarmed by the tale of the group with one map between them. If I were assessing a group with one map then they would fail, because self evidently they had not come equipped for the expedition, and the staff responsible for them would have got a rocket.

This was at cadets, apart of the food, clothes and backpacks all the equipment was provided by the group.

The girl was not only allowed to go without adaptations made for her despite not behaving well during the practices, she was also allowed to fling racist remarks to other kids day in day out while expecting other kids to be understanding due to her disability. They even gave her a yearly prize for effort …. a few weeks before banning her from the group altogether after she threatened to stab another cadet with a pair of scissors.

So yeah, I do think the people in charge deserved to get a rocket for that but other than that, I think both the experience of cadets and the DoE were very formative and positive for my child.

The weight thing is an issue- I was the “weakest” walker when I did Gold- but I was also 8 stone and carrying the same weight as the 11/12 stone lads.

I told both mine to drop dofe - for many reasons but the main one. Pointless. Just pointless. They did plenty exercise & it certainly LG doesn't do anything for personal statements & they just didn't like it.

Blind inclusivity has a lot to answer for sometimes.

It really isn't pointless.

Of course, if your dc don't want to do it, then that is fine, but holding a Gold DofE award is very well respected.
However, it isn't just about holding the Award, the whole ethos behind the scheme (and I am talking about when it is done properly) is about encouraging young people to go out of their comfort zone, and to try new skills. It includes organising things for yourself, it includes working as part of a team, it includes commitment to stick at something regularly over a number of months, it includes working with other people, it includes giving something back to the community.
I personally think all of those things contribute to making a well rounded young adult, and all of that is more important than having something to put on a CV - that is just a bonus.

All of these things and more are covered by the D of E scheme

www.dofe.org/wp-content/uploads/2019/04/20-Conditions-of-the-Expedition-section-2019.pdf

this is a long running, well-organised scheme which hundreds of thousands of school kids have successfully taken part in since the 1950s.

My dd done her bronze a couple of years ago, she is tiny, she ended up carrying more than she should according to her weight because her larger friend wouldn’t. Also another member of her group was really struggling with the walking, throwing up etc. They just had to all muck in and help carry her stuff, no other way to do it as miles from anywhere or anyone who could help, my dd is not particular sporty or very strong, I do think she had quite a tough group, completely put her off doing the silver, but I was proud of her and her little group for all getting through it and encouraging the 2 potentially weaker ones to finish it.

Yes, when it is done properly @TrashyPanda , which is what JennieLee is saying.
However, there has been a growing trend over the last 10 years of more, for schools to almost use it as a marketing thing "We offer DofE" and there is a 'push' to 'youngsters through' rather than deliver the quality programme that is should be.
If you are on MN regularly, you will often see threads asking for advice after posters' dcs' schools have either left them to it without proper consultation about what they should be doing for all the sections apart from the expedition, or (a common one) the school have signed them up too young and then they find they can't find any volunteering opportunities, or they have given very little training and guidance before the expedition, amongst other things.

DofE is a great scheme, done well, but watered down - or possibly worse still 'imposed upon' unwilling dc - it loses everything it sets out to do.

they did it! Everyone finished. DS is full of stories, and LPK was probably not the least PK. They came back still friends and talking about Silver, so success all round.

👏👏👏

Well done! @lljkk Glad to hear it turned out okay in the end.

We've just been shopping for DD's expedition, which she's really excited about.

Surely this is exactly the kind of scenario DofE is geared towards? It’s about the teamwork. Why on Earth are you so invested in this OP? It is your child doing it, not you!

There's always one. Was on mine, 35 years ago. And everyone I've ever spoken to since. One on Ds1's a few years ago. You just get on with it. It's part of the team building experience that DoE is.

I am very happy that my concerns were misplaced. :)

As an aside I’ve just started pricing up the recommended equipment list for DD and WOW!! Inaccessible to the average child much?

I agree, when DS did it the school was charging over £250 and I don’t think that included any equipment. With cadets I think I paid about £15 or £50 for each certificate and most equipment was included.

Think we paid about £60 total & most equipment (tents, backpacks, stoves, fuel) was provided (some kids prefer to bring their own versions instead). Kids needed to procure own waterproofs & boots, clothing, most the food. That said, if a family couldn't afford those personal items, there is a school hardship fund that could help.