Your thoughts on smart meters - feel I'm being forced into having them.

[CrunchyCarrot]

So last Sept we got switched to Octopus energy as our old supplier went bust. The previous supplier (Avro) tried to sell us the idea of smart meters but we refused - had heard about not being able to switch suppliers and were concerned about potential for hacking of the devices and some horror stories. So a few days ago I submitted a meter reading due to prices about to rise, and today I got an email saying we need our meters replacing, as 'they are approaching the end of their operational life' and 'Gas and electricity meters should be replaced periodically, generally every 15 - 20 years, to ensure absolute accuracy and safety.' That's the first I've heard of it!

After reading around on another forum I discoverd one's meter will show when it was last 'certified' (i.e. seems to mean was declared fit to give accurate readings). Ours don't have sticky labels, in fact they are so old they have attached paper tags - so I blew off the dust (!) and discovered the electric meter's was dated 1989! Couldn't read the gas one as the label was partly destroyed but the date began with 19--. So clearly these are pretty old. Yet no-one has mentioned having them 're-certified' or replaced till just after the price rise?

I visited Octopus's smart meter FAQ: 'Do you have to replace my meter?' 'Yes, we’re required to do so under governmental regulation. It is our duty to ensure customers have continuity of safe energy supply that is accurately recorded.'

Honestly I feel this is being pushed very hard at us. It's very hard to argue with 'we have to do so under govt regulation' and 'Just so you know, we can't replace your meters like for like as traditional meters are becoming increasingly difficult to get hold of.' However I fully intend to hold out for the time being. I expect to be forced into it eventually, however.

What have others done? Anyone else had this 'your meters aren't certified' email?

I had my gas meter replaced a few years ago (not smart). It is true that they have to make sure the meters are safe and effective.

Interestingly my mum is with Octopus and wants a smart meter because hers is in an awkward place and is difficult for her to read but they say she can't have one because she is all electric!

I can't understand how posters say they have saved them so much money

I suppose they alert you if you've left something on and have forgotten or you might notice a huge spike with the kettle and start remembering to boil only what you need, turn pans down more quickly than usual etc. Habits that some people already have, but a smart meter is good at nudging you. I don't really know why people object to them these days (they were a bit rubbish when they became "dumb" if you changed supplier, but the new ones don't do that), you can still read them yourself and keep records if you are concerned they will be inaccurate or the energy company will fleece you.

I’d happily have one but am not able to. I get harassed constantly by my provider and so I let them send someone round who is then unable to install it (again!), all goes quiet for a while and then 6 months later the emails, letters and phone calls start again.

My only real worry about the whole thing is that some tariffs are smart metre tariffs only and I’m not unwilling, just unable …

Is it worth resisting? I think smart meters are a good thing and technology is a part of our future whether we want it or not so in my opinion it's best to get on board and used to the idea rather than wasting precious energy fighting against the current which is the future anyway. I've never come across any 'horror stories' with smart meters in real life.

Smart metres will eventually be used to do something called Load Controlling. It already exists in other countries. Basically its a way of charging you more at peak times. Want a hot shower at 7am, pay more. Want to cook dinner at 7pm, pay more. There is no such thing as free, if you're not buying the product, you are the product.

Surveillance
Marketed
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@yellowsuninthesky

I can't understand how posters say they have saved them so much money

I suppose they alert you if you've left something on and have forgotten or you might notice a huge spike with the kettle and start remembering to boil only what you need, turn pans down more quickly than usual etc. Habits that some people already have, but a smart meter is good at nudging you. I don't really know why people object to them these days (they were a bit rubbish when they became "dumb" if you changed supplier, but the new ones don't do that), you can still read them yourself and keep records if you are concerned they will be inaccurate or the energy company will fleece you.

I suppose you’d save money much in the way you tend to save money when you do your grocery shopping online rather than in person?

I would like a smart metre (not possible) as I am curious as to how much some things actually cost - boiling the kettle for instance - and whether having the boiler on high for an hour costs more than having it on low for 2 hours .. that sort of thing.

@Ohsugarhoneyicetea

Smart metres will eventually be used to do something called Load Controlling. It already exists in other countries. Basically its a way of charging you more at peak times. Want a hot shower at 7am, pay more. Want to cook dinner at 7pm, pay more. There is no such thing as free, if you're not buying the product, you are the product.

Surveillance
Marketed
As
Revolutionary
Technology

I’ve read this sort of idea before but I’ll be honest, the bit that worries me the most is what will happen to me as someone who can’t have a smart metre? There are already “smart only” tariffs with the best prices. If you didn’t have a smart metre will you inevitably just be charged more as if you are using your energy at peak hours only?

As far as I understand it, the smart gas meter can only communicate internally with the smart electricity meter, by means of a short range signal, and the electric meter then sends a long range mobile signal (with both their readings) to the power company.
In my house, the electric meter is outside, and the gas meter is indoors, a long way away from it and on the wrong side of two double brick cavity walls.
I very much doubt that the two could successfully communicate with each other at all, and I have no wish for a smart meter.
I prefer to check my own readings and pay quarterly, rather than give the company carte blanche to direct debit my bank account.
My dislike stems partly from a brief switch to a cheaper provider, who insisted on direct debits - and then passed the same bill through my bank repeatedly until it had overdrawn my account. The bank employee who chased them up for my refund said after speaking to them that he “Wouldn’t trust them to sit the right way up on the toilet!”.

Just keep refusing. So many good reasons to not have smart meters.

@yellowsuninthesky

I can't understand how posters say they have saved them so much money

I suppose they alert you if you've left something on and have forgotten or you might notice a huge spike with the kettle and start remembering to boil only what you need, turn pans down more quickly than usual etc. Habits that some people already have, but a smart meter is good at nudging you. I don't really know why people object to them these days (they were a bit rubbish when they became "dumb" if you changed supplier, but the new ones don't do that), you can still read them yourself and keep records if you are concerned they will be inaccurate or the energy company will fleece you.

I don't object to them, just that I have meters already that work fine. If the company is willing to give me a 1hr arrival time slot outside of my working hours to install, and the same if it malfunctions then they are welcome to install one. I object to paying through loss of income or holiday leave. As we are careful and usage is low already, I think it would take a long time to make that money back through any energy savings.

@Babdoc

As far as I understand it, the smart gas meter can only communicate internally with the smart electricity meter, by means of a short range signal, and the electric meter then sends a long range mobile signal (with both their readings) to the power company. In my house, the electric meter is outside, and the gas meter is indoors, a long way away from it and on the wrong side of two double brick cavity walls. I very much doubt that the two could successfully communicate with each other at all, and I have no wish for a smart meter. I prefer to check my own readings and pay quarterly, rather than give the company carte blanche to direct debit my bank account. My dislike stems partly from a brief switch to a cheaper provider, who insisted on direct debits - and then passed the same bill through my bank repeatedly until it had overdrawn my account. The bank employee who chased them up for my refund said after speaking to them that he “Wouldn’t trust them to sit the right way up on the toilet!”.

I thought that was only the first generation smart meters?

I was like some of the people on here. Then we got one and I love it.

I don't have smart meters. I've always resisted, our meters are from the ark

@Ohsugarhoneyicetea

Smart metres will eventually be used to do something called Load Controlling. It already exists in other countries. Basically its a way of charging you more at peak times. Want a hot shower at 7am, pay more. Want to cook dinner at 7pm, pay more. There is no such thing as free, if you're not buying the product, you are the product.

Surveillance
Marketed
As
Revolutionary
Technology

And also paying cheaper at quieter times.

So you get a house battery, electric car, top up with cheap energy at cheaper times.

Gas isn't a peak time thing really - just electricity

And as we get better at storing energy, peak time vs off peak differences will become cheaper.

So you get a house battery, electric car, top up with cheap energy at cheaper times.

All of which has high start up costs (financially and environmentally).

Not everyone wants an electric car or house batteries.

@OnceAgainWithFeeling

So you get a house battery, electric car, top up with cheap energy at cheaper times.

All of which has high start up costs (financially and environmentally).

Not everyone wants an electric car or house batteries.

I know...but the future is calling

People didn't want that pesky electricity many years ago

I used to have economy 7 and still have both meters

I'm sure the fire brigade said It can be dodgy to use appliances overnight

I havent had this and I was an Avro to Octopus customer, maybe my email is 'in the post'. Anyway no, I don't want one and won't be having one. I've read so much negative stuff about them.

I also agree that the long term objective is to control, although I have no doubt that eventually the tariffs will be so different that it will effectively force people into having one.

@ilovemyelectriccar

Reading a lot of worry about 'surge pricing'. Sure, some times would be more expensive but some times WOULD BE CHEAPER. We shunt much of our consumption to the off peak hours and it costs us 5p per kWh!!! Now it is going up in May, to 7.5p per kWh.

5p per kilowatt!!!

Mine is 38.7p

March bill before prices went up by 70% was nearly £500 and we have frozen all through winter.

@cakeorwine

I was like some of the people on here. Then we got one and I love it.

Did you make back lost income if someone had to be home?

@cakeorwine Well I'm at work during the day, so I wont be enjoying off peak, but yay for the unemployed? And of course gas has peaks, almost everyone turns it on for a bit in the morning and again in the evening.

[quote Ohsugarhoneyicetea]@cakeorwine Well I'm at work during the day, so I wont be enjoying off peak, but yay for the unemployed? And of course gas has peaks, almost everyone turns it on for a bit in the morning and again in the evening.[/quote]
But electricity can't be stored unlike gas - which is why electricity prices vary a lot during the day.

However - we are getting better at storing electricity.

To improve you need to be able measure it. By being able to measure how much I am using at specific times I can identify what behaviours to change.

Obviously there is more than one way to do this, but by measuring in detail makes it easier to gain reductions.

I can see how much I’m using every 30 minutes. Screenshot attached from the app.

When in the future do you see the cash strapped general public (many of whom are going to be choosing food or hearing) having £30k-ish to spend on an electric car and charger? (And the as yet unknown cost of replacing batteries when they’re 8 years old?)

@Aposterhasnoname

But how? This is what I don't get. You know what uses electricity and you know if you have turned it on so I don't know how a smart meter would help.

So basic examples. Previously used the dishwasher on a one hour cycle, cos shorter cycle = less electric right? Wrong. The three hour forty five minute cycle uses far less, and I can see that at a glance. Second example, look at meter, see it’s red, go round house and find the electric heaters been left on. Third example, clock cost of running light bulbs, replace with LED, and can’t believe the difference. It’s like a little voice in the background, constantly reminding you what you’re spending, and motivating you to try and reduce it. I realise some people have no choice but to do that anyway, but if you’ve always been a bit lax, as we have, its a real eye opener.

Ok fine if you treat it like an eyeopener. But the marketing of them is incorrect, they do not "put you in control of your usage".