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Genuine question about stereotypes

68 replies

wanttomarryamillionaire · 25/03/2022 16:50

So yesterday i was listening to a radio show about the young black girl that was strip searched by police, they were talking about stereotypes. Then today i have been reading a thread about travellers and again it has raised a question for me about stereotypes. How do/did stereotypes of certain sections of society begin? Where do they come from? Im not just talking about the two I've mentioned above but all stereotypes. Genuine question, not trying to start an argument.

OP posts:
OnlyFoolsnMothers · 25/03/2022 17:29

@Rummikub

Perhaps if local councils agreed land that travellers could use and as part of that agreement would be the area would be left in the same condition as it was found.
To who’s cost?
Rummikub · 25/03/2022 17:31

To the benefit of the whole community

I don’t see the benefit in marginalising or criminalising a whole group.

Rummikub · 25/03/2022 17:33

Tbh I do see the stuff you’ve mentioned eg part of tesco car park taken over for a couple of days.

But it got me thinking what options do they actually have?

Thoosa · 25/03/2022 17:34

@OnlyFoolsnMothers

The prevailing negative stereotype of travellers/gypsies are that they are all dirty/anti-social/criminal etc etc. Which clearly isn’t true ok let me explain myself better, in order to be a traveller you aren’t settled in a dwelling, you move around- who pays for the upkeep of the land they temporarily rest on?
Some sites are owned by the travellers. Some travellers are settled in houses. Some sites are council-run. Lots of variations.

Maybe you should just cut to the chase and explain why you think stereotypes of travellers and gypsies are justified?

Thoosa · 25/03/2022 17:36

@Rummikub

Tbh I do see the stuff you’ve mentioned eg part of tesco car park taken over for a couple of days.

But it got me thinking what options do they actually have?

Exactly. What do nomads do when all the common land is gone? It’s not a question unique to Europe. There are lots of solutions.
MangyInseam · 25/03/2022 17:37

A lot of people don't really understand what a stereotype is.

All it means is that it is a generalization about a group of people that is widely believed, or seen as a sort of "pattern" or typical.

It may, in terms of the group, be an accurate generalization, or not. The mistake is really assuming or behaving as if the stereotype will apply to all individual members of the group.

There are all kinds of things we can say about statistics about groups of people that are true. That a certain group is more likely to be wealthy, or poor, or that there are differences in educational attainment, or one is taller, or the size of genitalia, or a certain group is more likely to be agreeable.

Statistically, these things can be absolutly true, and that means that in some cases we may tend to expect members of that group to be like that, or treat individuals as if they are like that.

But the error is that you cannot apply group stats and patterns to individuals. It's unfair, but it's also a misunderstanding of how statistics work.

Of course some stereotypes are just untrue. Why myths like that arise is varied - sometimes there are historical reasons that make sense, sometimes it can be attempts to disparage a group, but sometimes it seems weirdly random.

OnlyFoolsnMothers · 25/03/2022 17:39

Maybe you should just cut to the chase and explain why you think stereotypes of travellers and gypsies are justified? because the stereotype you’re surely arguing is what makes them travellers ie. They travel and therefore don’t pay the rates in life that non travellers pay to live in their homes. I was genuinely trying to work out if that’s not all travellers?

Thoosa · 25/03/2022 17:44

@OnlyFoolsnMothers

Maybe you should just cut to the chase and explain why you think stereotypes of travellers and gypsies are justified? because the stereotype you’re surely arguing is what makes them travellers ie. They travel and therefore don’t pay the rates in life that non travellers pay to live in their homes. I was genuinely trying to work out if that’s not all travellers?
That’s not the stereotyping of travellers, though.
Rummikub · 25/03/2022 17:44

This is interesting. Doesn’t look like their way off life has changed for centuries.
It’s societal expectations that have changed.
travellermovement.org.uk/gypsy-roma-and-traveller-history-and-culture

OnlyFoolsnMothers · 25/03/2022 17:46

Isn’t being lawless the stereotype?!

Thoosa · 25/03/2022 17:48

Travellers, gypsies, Roma are ethnic groups.

Thoosa · 25/03/2022 17:49

Yes that’s my understanding @Rummikub

Rummikub · 25/03/2022 17:54

@Thoosa
It makes for interesting reading. I do remember my dad many years ago telling me about Romany routes. He encountered problems when trying to get a room ‘no Irish, no blacks, no dogs’. I wish I’d asked him more about his experience but he wouldn’t talk about it much.

I have found that I have to challenge my own initial stereotyping. And I experienced racist abuse and stereotyping. And it’s hard to hide as I’m clearly not white!

EmpressCixi · 25/03/2022 17:57

To add on to pp, stereotypes form based on prejudice. Prejudice is judging a whole group of people on the basis of one interaction you have had with one member of that group. This is different from discrimination or racism where you judge a whole group on the basis of what others have told you about them. Both prejudice and discrimination/racism (or sexism) then feed into stereotypes which are basically generalisations that are then applied en masse without any regard for reality. Stereotypes can be negative or positive...for positive ones think of the hard working immigrant, math savvy Asians, nurturing mother, strong and silent man. But positive stereotypes do as much harm as negative ones.

Their origin is in our psyche, our brains for survival has learned to categorise based on past experience....fire hot, don’t touch to hmmm all fires hot don’t touch. (Prejudice). And also based on learning vicariously...(discrimination). It’s hardwired in evolutionarily. Only through conscious examination can we identify and dismiss those that become harmful stereotypes that lead to racism, sexism, ableism, homophobia, etc etc.

Thoosa · 25/03/2022 17:58

I have found that I have to challenge my own initial stereotyping. And I experienced racist abuse and stereotyping. And it’s hard to hide as I’m clearly not white!

I know it gets complicated doesn’t it?

I did the different Harvard (can’t remember the exact name) unconscious bias tests. There are different ones for different characteristics/demographics. I am disabled (acquired in my 30s) and mixed ethnicity (obviously since birth). Turns out I’m very much NOT unconsciously biased against disabled people, which makes me highly statistically unusual but I am slightly biased against my own ethnicity.

Still haven’t quite explained it to myself!

Rummikub · 25/03/2022 18:02

That’s really interesting thoosa.

I’ve never tried that Harvard In conscious bias test. I’m sure I’ll have them. That’s why
I’ve never judged anyone about stereotyping but I do challenge. I’ve had enough older ladies (usually) say to me ‘you must feel the cold’. And I know they’re just trying to make a connection.

MangyInseam · 25/03/2022 18:04

@Thoosa

I have found that I have to challenge my own initial stereotyping. And I experienced racist abuse and stereotyping. And it’s hard to hide as I’m clearly not white!

I know it gets complicated doesn’t it?

I did the different Harvard (can’t remember the exact name) unconscious bias tests. There are different ones for different characteristics/demographics. I am disabled (acquired in my 30s) and mixed ethnicity (obviously since birth). Turns out I’m very much NOT unconsciously biased against disabled people, which makes me highly statistically unusual but I am slightly biased against my own ethnicity.

Still haven’t quite explained it to myself!

These tests aren't really considered valid from a psychometric viewpoint.

And even if they were, they have no idea what the results mean.

Thoosa · 25/03/2022 18:04

Yes I agree intention matters. Not a fashionable view, though.

MangyInseam · 25/03/2022 18:05

@Rummikub

That’s really interesting thoosa.

I’ve never tried that Harvard In conscious bias test. I’m sure I’ll have them. That’s why
I’ve never judged anyone about stereotyping but I do challenge. I’ve had enough older ladies (usually) say to me ‘you must feel the cold’. And I know they’re just trying to make a connection.

Why do they think you must feel the cold?
Thoosa · 25/03/2022 18:06

These tests aren't really considered valid from a psychometric viewpoint.

And even if they were, they have no idea what the results mean.

I fell down such a rabbit hole of critiques and counter-critiques. It’s diverting but in the end I just shrugged and got on with life. Smile Trying to remain aware is half the battle.

Rummikub · 25/03/2022 18:06

Can you explain more @MangyInseam

SpiderVersed · 25/03/2022 18:07

[quote Rummikub]Your brain chooses to stereotype as it makes it easier to categorise vast amounts of information.

www.theguardian.com/science/2016/nov/01/human-brain-is-predisposed-to-negative-stereotypes-new-study-suggests[/quote]
That makes perfect sense from an evolutionary standpoint. We need to remember negative stuff strongly to protect ourselves and our group from harm. Learning that leopards will eat you is vastly more important than learning dikdiks won't.

Rummikub · 25/03/2022 18:08

“Why do they think you must feel the cold?“

Because I’m not white so therefore must prefer a hotter climate.

I don’t! I hate the heat!

MangyInseam · 25/03/2022 19:46

@Rummikub

Can you explain more *@MangyInseam*
Maybe, but could you be more specific? About the tests or my other post, or....?
MangyInseam · 25/03/2022 19:53

@Rummikub

“Why do they think you must feel the cold?“

Because I’m not white so therefore must prefer a hotter climate.

I don’t! I hate the heat!

Ah, I see!

I on the other hand am from Canada and have rather northern DNA for the most part, and I prefer the heat and can't stand the cold. The more cold we have, the more I hate it. At least until the last year when I started getting hot flashes!

I know a lot of people I know who have moved here from hot places do mind the cold, and I think that's fairly common, though people adapt of course I have a friend who grew up here and lives in teh far North, she sweats like crazy when she visits.

I wonder though if there is any truth to the idea that ethnicity can affect how you deal with climate? Some groups do have adaptions that seem related, I remember reading about the Inuit and their ability to manage cold but I don't remember whether their adaptions were evident among Inuit that had been raised in the South or if they even looked at that. Of course that is a very extreme climate.