Surrogate babies stranded in Ukraine

[Femalewoman]

www.thetimes.co.uk/article/surrogate-born-babies-stranded-in-kyiv-basement-gd3txmqmp

www.theguardian.com/world/2020/jun/15/the-stranded-babies-of-kyiv-and-the-women-who-give-birth-for-money

I read this story. The babies waiting to be collected by the richer European or further afield families who have purchased them now stuck in a dreadful situation.

I hope they can get these mothers and babies out safely.

I don't agree however with the purchase of a baby from another country. I understand why the poor Ukraine women sell their babies to richer families but I find it sad and distasteful.

How sad for all involved

I totally agree it is a horrendous situation.

I have no sympathy for the ‘intended parents’. I have sympathy for the surrogate mothers and babies.

The legal situation is horrendous….it really is shocking to have a situation where the person who birthed a baby doesn’t have automatic rights over that child. I really think that’s a basic in most countries for very good reasons.

I am horrified at reading some people are encouraging the surrogate mothers back into a war zone as the legal system there suits them better.

I don’t think the journalist writing abou this have been hard hitting enough.

It's horrific practice under normal circumstances, never mind during a war.

Imagine finding out later in life your birth mother was left to die in a war whilst you were swanned off to another country. I can imagine that will cause some damage down the line.

I never realised surrogacy was such a bad thing.... do you just not agree with it in situations where the birth mother is paid? Or in all situations like when a sister carries a baby for her sibling who can't?

@Katiekat84

I never realised surrogacy was such a bad thing.... do you just not agree with it in situations where the birth mother is paid? Or in all situations like when a sister carries a baby for her sibling who can't?

Personally I think altruistic surrogacy (like your sister example) is totally different from commercial surrogacy in which poor and vulnerable women are exploited (and endangered) for a profit and babies are effectively sold to the wealthy.

I have no problem with altruistic surrogacy but this isn’t, it’s selling babies as a commodity, totally different.

It’s a crazy story.

Just a bit confused about the ‘selling a baby’ bit though as my understanding was that the baby is the intended parents child - so if said baby grew up with its surrogate mother and did a DNA test it would tell the baby that the surrogate mother is not their parent and that their real parents are the intended parents. Whereas the baby grows up with its parents, does a DNA test and it says yes these are your parents and also they are the people who raise the child. So from the child’s perspective they are with their parents.

@Katiekat84

I never realised surrogacy was such a bad thing.... do you just not agree with it in situations where the birth mother is paid? Or in all situations like when a sister carries a baby for her sibling who can't?

No I don't agree with it in any circumstances. It's still treating children like commodities.

If you can't give your sister your five year old, why can you give her your newborn? Also, families can exert terrible emotional pressure. Childbirth is the most dangerous thing most women will ever do. It's an enormous ask of someone to risk their life and health on your behalf.

I don’t personally support altruistic surrogacy, however I wouldn’t legislate against it. As a pp said, although there isn’t money involved people can be emotionally manipulated and I don’t think it’s fair to ask someone to take on that risk. There was a story in the news a while ago about a surrogate who died during surrogacy for issues related to the pregnancy/birth. She left her own partner and child without her.

I do think there is more potential for ethical issues where money is involved.

@Whatsinaname4 sometimes surrogacy is done with the IPs gg other times it is the surrogates egg or a donor egg.

Either way one major issue for me is that the baby involved doesn’t know their genetics….they just know that they get comfort and safety from the person they grew inside, the person whose smell and voice they recognise. Then they know the loss of that person. It just doesn’t strike me as ethical to construct a situation where a baby is separated from the person that birthed them as an integral part of that process.

Not enough thought is given to the needs and the rights of the babies in surrogacy

commercial and altrustic surrogacy is illegal in most of Europe, France Germany Italy Spain Austria Normay Finland
in UK and Denmark Belgium Portugal altrusic is allowed
I tihnk it should always be illegal including bringing in a child from countries where surrogacy is legal

@Whatsinaname4

It’s a crazy story.

Just a bit confused about the ‘selling a baby’ bit though as my understanding was that the baby is the intended parents child - so if said baby grew up with its surrogate mother and did a DNA test it would tell the baby that the surrogate mother is not their parent and that their real parents are the intended parents. Whereas the baby grows up with its parents, does a DNA test and it says yes these are your parents and also they are the people who raise the child. So from the child’s perspective they are with their parents.

In the U.K., the law is that the baby must be genetically related to at least one of the IPs. I'm not sure if that is the case in Ukraine.

@Femalewoman

www.thetimes.co.uk/article/surrogate-born-babies-stranded-in-kyiv-basement-gd3txmqmp

www.theguardian.com/world/2020/jun/15/the-stranded-babies-of-kyiv-and-the-women-who-give-birth-for-money

I read this story. The babies waiting to be collected by the richer European or further afield families who have purchased them now stuck in a dreadful situation.

I hope they can get these mothers and babies out safely.

I don't agree however with the purchase of a baby from another country. I understand why the poor Ukraine women sell their babies to richer families but I find it sad and distasteful.

They are SURROGATE mothers; the baby was implanted from other parents. Rent-a-womb rather than sell-a-baby. Still very dreadful for the stranded babies (and their bio parents).

Surrogacy goes in in UK too.

Julie Bindel relates one man she interviewed telling her that both ‘his’ children were born by Caesarean section ‘ because I didn’t want my children anywhere near a vagina’

That is really disgusting.

I am in the privileged position of being able to carry and birth my babies but I cannot imagine the distress of not being able to do that, the need to have a baby for me was all consuming. I can see why people go down the surrogacy route since adoption is also so difficult... I follow Rosanna Davidson and was so happy for her when she her her baby via surrogacy a few years ago. I didn't realise the ethical implications.

I was ambivalent about surrogacy. Now firmly against it. Similar happened in Ukraine 2 years ago at the start of covid when the intended parents couldn’t collect their commissioned babies due to border closures. Commercial surrogacy is such an unethical practice anyway never mind in a war situation. I hope it is outlawed in Ukraine when the war is over.

@Katiekat84

I am in the privileged position of being able to carry and birth my babies but I cannot imagine the distress of not being able to do that, the need to have a baby for me was all consuming. I can see why people go down the surrogacy route since adoption is also so difficult... I follow Rosanna Davidson and was so happy for her when she her her baby via surrogacy a few years ago. I didn't realise the ethical implications.

Also followed Rosanna story and same view as you. It definitely gets more complex if it’s not using the embryo of the intended parents for me.

@2bazookas - the woman who gives birth to the baby is its mother. That's what the word means.

If a woman uses donor eggs to conceive a baby, is she the baby's mother or is it the woman who donated the eggs?

Either it's the donor or the woman who gestates the baby. Both things can't be true at the same time.

@Katiekat84

I am in the privileged position of being able to carry and birth my babies but I cannot imagine the distress of not being able to do that, the need to have a baby for me was all consuming. I can see why people go down the surrogacy route since adoption is also so difficult... I follow Rosanna Davidson and was so happy for her when she her her baby via surrogacy a few years ago. I didn't realise the ethical implications.

I think this is why some people support surrogacy, because it is awful for someone to not be able to have a child. I needed fertility treatment and I agree wanting a baby was all consuming in an almost primal sort of a way, a way that’s hard to verbalise. I can well understand why people do surrogacy.

However I don’t think any of that negates the negative impact on the babies and surrogate involved in both individual arrangements and the system as a whole.

22 babies in one place. Baby factory, not even a baby farm.

@Whatsinaname4

It’s a crazy story.

Just a bit confused about the ‘selling a baby’ bit though as my understanding was that the baby is the intended parents child - so if said baby grew up with its surrogate mother and did a DNA test it would tell the baby that the surrogate mother is not their parent and that their real parents are the intended parents. Whereas the baby grows up with its parents, does a DNA test and it says yes these are your parents and also they are the people who raise the child. So from the child’s perspective they are with their parents.

The situation is not as straightforward as that:

1. DNA doesn't create ownership of children. As a PP says, we don't tell women who give birth using donor eggs that the egg donor is the 'real' mother and the birth mother is not their parent.

1. Like the UK in Ukraine you can have surrogacy using donor eggs/sperm as long as one of the intended parents' has a genetic connection (see e.g. parensfertility.com/surrogacy-with-donors-oocytes/ ) so even if DNA = 'real' parent then surrogacy doesn't necessarily involve that. In fact in the UK the Law Commission has suggested that surrogacy should be possible with no genetic link to the intended parents (in some circumstances). It's the agreement of adults that make the child 'theirs' not the DNA.

1. Even if the intended parents think there's a genetic connection that's not always the case when the child is tested. E.g. look at the European Court of Human Rights case of Paradiso v Italy where a surrogacy in Russia ended up with a child who wasn't genetically related to the intended parents. Of course there might be an accidental mix up in the clinic but there's a lot of evidence that surrogacy has been used as a front for trafficking and baby sale. Look up Biotexcom e.g. english.elpais.com/elpais/2018/09/27/inenglish/1538051520_476218.html these kinds of allegations have happened in numerous countries jpia.princeton.edu/news/lessons-ukraine-shifting-international-surrogacy-policy-protect-women-and-children

Surrogacy is despicable and should be banned.

[quote Clymene]@2bazookas - the woman who gives birth to the baby is its mother. That's what the word means.

If a woman uses donor eggs to conceive a baby, is she the baby's mother or is it the woman who donated the eggs?

Either it's the donor or the woman who gestates the baby. Both things can't be true at the same time. [/quote]
Good points

"Although the publicised users are usually heterosexual couples, the trade actually depends on supplying same sex couples with babies (nearly always two men, because in a two woman relationship, one or both females could bear the child). So, of course, the female gamete has to be purchased as well.

Julie Bindel relates one man she interviewed telling her that both ‘his’ children were born by Caesarean section ‘ because I didn’t want my children anywhere near a vagina’."

That's disgusting.

To answer another PP the egg isn't always from the intended 'mother' some of the surrogates use their own egg with donor sperm since the 'intended mother' or 2 dads cannot donate an egg. It's very much a commercial venture of selling of babies.