Lesbian mums - do you find people say 'it doesn't matter' about who gave birth?

[SarahAndQuack]

I'm just curious - if you've got a situation where one of you is a biological parent and the other isn't, do people say this to you? I've noticed it seems to be the standard response if the subject of who DD's biological mum is comes up. I know people say it to be reassuring but it always slightly irritates me and I wondered if anyone else had similar experiences?

Ah, damn. I meant to put this in Chat.

I know it used to irritate both women in the lesbian marriage I know most about the internal workings of (old friends). Because in their case, it absolutely did matter. One of them desperately wanted to carry the baby, tried for a very long time without success, then conceived twins she lost at 24 weeks. Then, after more trying, they decided that the younger of the two should be the one to try to conceive, and that pregnancy resulted in a daughter. Obviously they are delighed with her, but the fact remains that the woman who desperately wanted to carry and give birth lost her babies at birth, and was never able to conceive again, and the woman who was never that bothered about being pregnant and giving birth was the one who ended up doing it. They're a strong, happy couple who are excellent parents, but it hasn't been without its heartbreak and complications.

So, yeah, it's just banal social chit chat, but potentially insensitive.

Never had this said. Can’t really see the context in which it would be said? As part of a wider conversation?

I assume people saying it are trying to be reassuring to the non-birthing mother, so not treating them as ‘lesser than’ in mothering terms? Tricky, because of course it does matter!

Oh, that's terribly sad, @PleaseBeSeated. Thank goodness, we've not been through anything like that, but I have had fertility issues and (early) losses so perhaps that's part of it. I also feel it matters because DP had a rough pregnancy and saying 'it doesn't matter' sometimes feels like they're saying none of that made a difference, and of course it did.

@Shamoo - interesting that you don't get this response! I find it usually comes up if someone either asks which of us is the bio mum, or when DD was tiny I had masses of it because people I didn't know well would see me with a baby and do the whole 'OMG I didn't know you were pregnant' thing, which meant I had to reply 'well, actually ...' and have a conversation about it.

@NoSquirrels - YY, I'm sure it's meant to be reassuring (signalling 'it doesn't matter to me/I'm not judging' or something like that).

I couldn’t imagine a scenario in which this would be said. Experiencing pregnancy and childbirth DOES matter. It’s not nothing. It’s dismissive to both mothers.

I think this could be a clumsy way of trying to show acceptance of lesbian parents, and of each partner being an equal parent. These are very different things from successfully carrying a foetus to term.

@givethatbabyaname

I couldn’t imagine a scenario in which this would be said. Experiencing pregnancy and childbirth DOES matter. It’s not nothing. It’s dismissive to both mothers.

I think this could be a clumsy way of trying to show acceptance of lesbian parents, and of each partner being an equal parent. These are very different things from successfully carrying a foetus to term.

Do you mind me asking - what do people say to you? Or does the subject just never come up?

It’s tricky, isn’t it?

Heterosexual couple & standard birth - equal parents but defined roles physically.

Homosexual male couple - equal parents, no confusion over physical birthing roles!

Homosexual female couple - equal parents, but physically not obvious unless you saw/knew them when pregnant and then how do you signal ‘everyone’s equal/not less of a mother’ without saying it somehow. I mean ideally maybe you’d just shut up! But hard on a superficial level. And then also any underlying fertility issues etc. to navigate emotionally.

It’s clumsy though, definitely.

I think you’re reading too much into this, they more than likely mean they regard you as equal parents regardless of who is the biological mother or gave birth, I don’t think they’re trying to dismiss pregnancy and child birth at all. I can understand why it would be annoying as I’m in a same sex relationship and we want kids, because of course we will be both equal parents (we don’t need to be told this by other people), I just think people don’t know what to say and are trying to show you that there’s no judgment on their end about who is the mum and who isn’t.

I think it’s different for us because we had one each, were pregnant at the same time and both breastfed both. People we met after, like school parents, don’t really ask but each child looks very similar to the person who was pregnant with them so perhaps they assume?
The only issue we really do have is that people don’t know which one of our jobs is supposed to matter (they can’t get their head around it being both) and they seem to want one of us to be responsible for all the wifework. It’s very confusing to them that we both want to be in the whatsapp groups but then pick and choose who does what.
Also only one of us was invited on the mums’ night out.

It doesn't surprise me, but it's so rude that people ask you that. My friend is regularly asked "so where did you get your sperm from?". No-one ever asks me that and in fact, despite being married to a man when I got pregnant, I did not "get my sperm" in the conventional way.

I think it does matter to an extent who gave birth because you've had different experiences of pregnancy and childbirth even though the end result of being a parent is the same.

But I would only talk about it if you brought it up, if you wanted to compare pregnancy experiences or wanted to share how it felt being the supporting partner, depending on which you are.

@Elsiebear90 - YY, like I say, I'm not confused about what they intend to imply, just irritated by what they actually say. Good luck with your TTC!

@MadameDragon, ok, now I am just being entirely cheeky so please do tell me to shut up, but ... how did you manage being pregnant at the same time?! We wanted to but the clinic said we weren't allowed. Sorry, that's a tangent anyway. We also get the thing with the jobs/wifework/only wanting one of us on a night out. It's really interesting psychologically, isn't it? Frustrating, but interesting too.

@User280905, see, I don't know if I think it is rude to ask. I go back and forth on this. In a way, I think the culture of silence can be more damaging - people often seem to think silence is the only polite response and that's odd too.

We did ivf abroad and there weren’t any rules against it. We didn’t get pregnant at the same time, the first one was almost here when we tried for the second.

I'm not a lesbian parent .

I live in a super-liberal American city, where there's enough general knowledge and awareness for this to just not happen.

Thinking of the lesbian moms I know, I think their response to such a comment might be (1) to ignore it/pretend not to have heard it because they're over everything relating to their being lesbian parents (2) answer openly that it does matter, but without negativity (ie just explaining that it does matter, and maybe why if they know the person well enough) (3) eye-roll and say "actually, it does" and move on (4) thinking of one couple where one woman went through traumatic cancer treatment which left her unable to carry a baby to term, she'd probably explain the truth, which is that she would desperately like to have been pregnant and that she wishes they could have both had the experience.

I think, in all probability, they would probably do (1), just to close the door on the inevitable follow-up of "so, whose sperm did you use?".

Some people just don't know. Some don't want to know, some are nosy, some are respectfully interested but don't know if/how to ask. Whatever, it's not your problem or your responsibility to educate if you don't want to. Round these parts, people just get on with life. And, my kids are older now and parents don't figure so much. If you're still in the thick of baby classes etc, maybe come up with a reply that you're comfortable with and use it at all times. There's nothing wrong with "well, actually it does matter to us but we're happy to be here now with [baby]".

@MadameDragon

We did ivf abroad and there weren’t any rules against it. We didn’t get pregnant at the same time, the first one was almost here when we tried for the second.

Thanks for indulging my curiosity! That sounds lovely.

@givethatbabyaname - ah, I see! So perhaps it happens but you're just not around to hear it.

It’s interesting because there’s usually a phase of questions, then a realisation that we genuinely do 50% each, then in some cases a realisation that their partner or husband actually is a long way from doing half.

@SarahAndQuack it was actually a bit naive, I wouldn’t advise it at all! But it’s great that they are close in age.

We haven't really had that said from anyone that I can remember. We have an 8 year old and a 4 year old, both carried by me but both created from my partner's eggs. So even though I am the birth parent, she is the biological parent. I guess some people would put different emphasis on the two things if they were to have an opinion or to comment. When I was pregnant/on mat leave it was more meaningful that I was the birth parent. Now less so. As they get older the genetics may become more significant. Not even our families have really commented on these things though.

Yes, that's more than likely :)

[quote MadameDragon]@SarahAndQuack it was actually a bit naive, I wouldn’t advise it at all! But it’s great that they are close in age.[/quote]
Who isn't naive when they have a baby?!

We were totally clueless too, in all sorts of ways.

Gosh I would carefully avoid asking any questions whatsoever about which lesbian parent carried the baby. Because to me, it would matter enormously. It also matters enormously to me that my child is my child genetically as well as socially. My whole concept of the word ´mother’ is tied up in all 3 aspects - genetics, pregnancy and birth and actually parenting the baby/child. I have to be careful not to put my foot in it around anyone who’s family works differently because I genuinely don’t want to offend anyone or imply that they or there family are less than because their experience of motherhood does not include the same 3 aspects. But it’s hard, because my own experience of motherhood is very much about those three things being interwoven and I would have thoughts like ´are you both called mum or just the actual mum’? which is an astonishingly tone deaf thing to ask so I wouldn’t do it. But I would definitely think it. One lesbian couple I know had one ´mum’ and one ´auntie’ which worked for them and made much more sense in my brain but obviously I would never offer my opinion on someone else’s choice of names/roles within their own family.

@SarahAndQuack thank you! People know we want biological kids so we’ve had a lot of questions about how we are going to get pregnant, they’re well meaning if not slightly nosey at times, but it does get very annoying after a while, so I feel your pain. I get fed up having to answer questions and talk to people I don’t know very well like colleagues or friends of friends about something that’s very personal, but then I feel like the only way we will normalise non traditional families is if we are willing to talk about it? So it’s a bit of a double edged sword.

I actually dread all the questions and ignorant comments we will get when one of us is (hopefully) pregnant, it’s something I’m really concerned about, as I know how heteronormative all things pregnancy and baby related are.

Hmmm we don’t actually this get question/response? Few people ask directly and everyone assumes the one they meet first is bio-mom and there is a dad until they meet the other (we do fairly equal school stuff)

Although in our case I’ve carried all but not all are bio-mine (used her egg too) to confuse things further!

If I didn’t already know, I’d never dream of asking a lesbian couple which on gave birth! It would be incredibly rude.