Lesbian mums - do you find people say 'it doesn't matter' about who gave birth?

[SarahAndQuack]

I'm just curious - if you've got a situation where one of you is a biological parent and the other isn't, do people say this to you? I've noticed it seems to be the standard response if the subject of who DD's biological mum is comes up. I know people say it to be reassuring but it always slightly irritates me and I wondered if anyone else had similar experiences?

Jesus Jellycats. I’ve done a poor job of explaining myself if that’s what you believe I think. Of course you are mother to your children. I don’t believe it’s a question of nature vs. nuture. It’s always both. Just because I feel connected to my own child in part because of our genetic link, in part because I grew him and gave birth to him (I think pregnancy is a mix of nature and nuture) and in part because I look after him and care for him as he grows, it doesn’t mean I think the nuturing you do for your child/children is meaningless! Absolutely not. I actually think that over an entire childhood or lifetime the actual parenting is by far the most important part of being of being a mother.

can i ask a question - and i hope it does not offend!?

if woman a gives birth - on birth cert as mother

woman b (her partner/wife), is not (or is she?). What happens if they split?

again - im NOT being crass or rude i am curious

I think the part that is really weird and nonsensical about @HereBdragons statements is that while she acknowledges that for her it was a triple genetics, pregnancy and birth combo that made her a mother, she clearly stated she (internally) applied this metric to others as well (hence the Auntie and Stepparent comments, but adoption is somehow different?)

It’s one thing to state that for you personally that makes you a mother, it’s another to even internally feel that someone who has undertaken parenthood from conception is not a true mother if they don’t meet those criteria.

The child that I carried but is my wife’s biologically—am I less of a mother than the bio one? Is my wife not because she hasn’t experienced pregnancy? What if I had been under general anaesthetic and had no memories of births?

It’s just really poor theory of mind to not be able to conceive that other people can have fundamentally different formative experiences of the path to motherhood without making them lesser mothers.

@GettingItOutThere in the case of close friends of mine, they shared custody in exactly the same way a heterosexual couple would. Both are legally parents and have equal parental responsibilities.

@GettingItOutThere

can i ask a question - and i hope it does not offend!?

if woman a gives birth - on birth cert as mother

woman b (her partner/wife), is not (or is she?). What happens if they split?

again - im NOT being crass or rude i am curious

I don't think this is rude! Why would it be?

The answer is it depends on the exact situation, like with hetero relationships.

1. In England, at the moment: if you are married or in a civil partnership and your wife gives birth, you are assumed to be the other legal parent. Doesn't matter if you're male or female. Married men have been assumed to be the dad for centuries, and when they brought in civil partnerships/same-sex marriage they just carried it over.

2. If you're not married but you get treated at a clinic licensed by the Human Fertilisation and Embryology Authority, and you both sign papers to indicate you intend to be joint parents, then both of you are automatically legal parents. You both go on the birth cert.

3. If you bypass clinics and do DIY home insemination, you could (I think? I'm more hazy on this) get the non-birth mum to adopt. But the non-birth mum wouldn't automatically have rights without that.

My best understanding in cases 1 and 2 is that if you split, they treat you just like any other two people with joint parental responsibility.

@Flashoes - isn't she just explaining how it would feel for her, to the best of her understanding, though? I read it that she was speculating how she'd feel if she were a lesbian or a man, rather than saying it's the absolute truth?

And, I don't think she is wrong if this is what she's saying - I have definitely met people who were devastated at the idea they couldn't be biological parents and who did not at all feel adoption or surrogacy or anything else would have meant the same to them.

Flashshoes, you’ve got my triple combo wrong. It was genetics, pregnancy+birth (one aspect and I’d probably put breastfeeding in here too) AND the actual looking after the baby/child part.

I also think for some women the experience of pregnancy and birth is integral to their experience of motherhood, for some folk that biological link is essential to where they couldn’t imagine feeling the same way about a child they hadn’t given birth to. It’s something we really explore in the adoption process because of the potential impact on children placed for adoption - I don’t think that’s particularly unusual. It’s the idea that non-biological mother’s, or parents who don’t give birth to their children are “social” parents that I struggle with - it’s ok to say you couldn’t do it or wouldn’t want to do it, but not to downgrade parents who do form their families in a different way.

And yes I was speculating about how I’d feel in those situations. I definitely don’t expect everyone else to think like I do, and I wouldn’t dare assume otherwise.

I actually almost commented what about breastfeeding? If you are making the argument that you need generics and birth then there is no reason not to include that a necessary step to motherhood.

But, most people easily see that mothers who formula feed are equally mothers.

Ironically I loved both pregnancy and breastfeeding and exclusively breastfed my children and I do not consider those to integral to motherhood.

Like @Jellycatspyjamas said, it’s ok for @HereBdragonsto acknowledge that those are integral to her motherhood, but not to downgrade parents who come to parenthood in other ways, which is what she has done on a thread where half the mums are bound to have no biological connection to their children.

That’s completely different from acknowledging that she personally needs that genetic link. It’s absolutely ok for people to acknowledge that they need that (and thus opt into/out of adoption, surrogacy, other non bio methods of family building) but that’s not what she did.

‘Social parents’ was perhaps clumsy wording. I meant that I see adopted children as having multiple parents who have different roles in their lives. Actual names like ´mum’ / ´dad’ I’d always follow the lead of the kids on, or whichever parent I was talking to at the time.

i cant quote but thank you @SarahAndQuack

i was not sure if people would be offended by my questioning!

I actually find it offensive for people to ask who the birth parent is. Not because I want to down play the roles we have played but I wouldn't want of someone to think of my wife as less of the kids parents than I am.

I'm a lesbian mother and I'm pretty sure I've said it myself!

On one level it does matter, of course. I was pregnant, gave birth, breastfed, took maternity leave so had more 1:1 time with DS in the early days. I don't have any problem sharing this with friends and family, and we tell DS he grew in my tummy. It's not a secret.

But sometimes when strangers have asked, I feel like they're prying on our relationship. It can sometimes seem to have undertones of "but who's the man/woman in the relationship?"

@LifeIsBusy

I actually find it offensive for people to ask who the birth parent is. Not because I want to down play the roles we have played but I wouldn't want of someone to think of my wife as less of the kids parents than I am.

I mean, I guess it depends on context?

I can totally imagine there would be situations where someone could ask us who the birth parent is, and it'd be obvious they were being rude, and I'd be offended.

But I think there are also situations where it's just a conversation, and quite matter-of-fact?

@GettingItOutThere

i cant quote but thank you *@SarahAndQuack*

i was not sure if people would be offended by my questioning!

No worries! It's really not well known and I cannot count the number of well-meaning people I know who have been terribly worried I've not adopted DD and must therefore be in a really precarious legal situation. It actually surprised both me and DP that there was a way for us to both be on the birth cert without getting married.

@HereBdragons "I would consider a father in a couple who used a sperm donor to be similar to a step-father."

I'm interested to know how you have formed this view. Most people who have stepfathers also have an actual father with whom they have a relationship. Some people have never known their biological father but this is not the norm. In contrast all people who have been born as a result of sperm donation do not know their biological father during childhood. The experience of having a step father or being born from sperm donation don't seem to be comparable.

What about children adopted as babies? Are their parents like step-parents too?

I have no biological connection to my youngest DD, whom I carried. I also have 2 children who are my biological children whom I carried. There is absolutely no difference in the parent-child relationship with any of them and if anyone suggested to my face that my youngest was like my "stepchild", I would think they were somewhat emotionally challenged.

I was really trying to explain how I would feel in that situation 1wanda1 rather than suggesting that my personal feelings on the different aspects of parenthood should be applied to other people’s situations. That would be an extremely egocentric way to think. I definitely agree it would be very rude and be an indication of poor social skills for someone to suggest to your face that your non-genetic child was akin to a stepchild. I think it’s extremely important to let people define and describe their own family relationships.
And yes I was definitely thinking more of the scenario where the stepdad was part of the child’s life from extremely early on and the biological father was not involved. I did have a couple if friends as a teenager with that set up who would have explained it as something like ´my dad’s actually my stepdad but I call him dad’.
You’re wrong about all children born as a result of sperm donation not meeting their biological father during childhood by the way. It’s probably not very common but it does happen.

It's an HFEA requirement that children born from sperm donation can't contact their biological fathers until they are 18.

I think that it's difficult to anticipate how you will feel as a parent until you are one. Like other major life changes - the death of a parent perhaps - you can imagine how you would feel, but you just don't know until you're in that situation. When I was pregnant with DD I worried that I might not love her as much as my older children who were biologically "mine". DW worried that she might not have the same bond because she didn't carry her. But it makes no difference at all. Love is what makes a family. Not genes.

Also not whether or not you breastfeed, or carried the baby!

It's an HFEA requirement that children born from sperm donation can't contact their biological fathers until they are 18.

Ooh, I did not know this!

I know people who've done fertility treatment with donor sperm bought from overseas who are aware of other donor siblings (they thought about meeting up but decided against it).