Depravation of assets

[Kellymarie322]

Help/advice required please:

Mum has Parkinson’s and dementia and in a care home long term

She has assets of a bungalow £350,000, £16000 savings and £1,000 government old age pension monthly

My sister has obtained this £16k and is withdrawing mums pension every month. She said mum gave her passwords to online banking

My sister owns her own house.

Mum always gave a lot of her money away and has indeed given more to myself than my sister over her lifetime

I am applying through court of protection as there is no power of attorney

My question is:

My sister has spent the money / would the local authority put a charging order on her property?

Would she be prosecuted for fraud/theft? (She has a signed letter from mum that she can access her bank account for what that’s worth)

We are both down as next of kin on her will

Opinions are not helpful thank you only advice please would be very much appreciated

Who lives in your mum's house? If it's empty then the LA will likely expect it to be sold. Charging orders tend to be used if someone is getting care at home. Your mum's assets are over the £23k funding threshold so she will be expected to fund her care.

The issue with your sister is separate. Are you saying she's stealing your mum's money? If you're going through the COP for a deputyship order then you'll have had to produce a capacity assessment saying your mum doesn't have the capacity to manage her finances. If this is the case, then her consent to your sister having access to the funds is irrelevant.

@bangaverage

Who lives in your mum's house? If it's empty then the LA will likely expect it to be sold. Charging orders tend to be used if someone is getting care at home. Your mum's assets are over the £23k funding threshold so she will be expected to fund her care.

The issue with your sister is separate. Are you saying she's stealing your mum's money? If you're going through the COP for a deputyship order then you'll have had to produce a capacity assessment saying your mum doesn't have the capacity to manage her finances. If this is the case, then her consent to your sister having access to the funds is irrelevant.

Thank you - that is most helpful

No I'm not saying my sister had stolen the money - my mum giving her and other family members is and was quite normal. My sister has been naive and is ignorant about such matters.

My mums house is empty and I am willing to sell.

Social workers have completed a DOLLS assessment recommended she stay in her care home

How long has she been in the care home? Your sister should not be taking any DWP pension out at all and you should inform them that your mother's in a home. After so many weeks in a care facility a pension is usually stopped. Your poor mother!

Ok, in that case yes the LA will expect the house to be sold and all of the sale proceeds put towards your mum's care costs.

If your mum doesn't have mental capacity then your sister needs to pay all the money back into your mum's account. Your mum couldn't have consented to your sister having the money. If your mum does have mental capacity then she can sign a lasting power of attorney and you don't have to go through the COP.

The absolutely central thing you must remember is that your mum's assets are hers and should be used to pay for her care. You don't really have a choice about selling her house, the money for her care fees has to come from somewhere and £16k in the bank really won't last long.

You say your mum has dementia...she hasn't got the mental capacity to give her money away, it's called taking advantage of a vulnerable person. It's disgusting...no wonder the social workers has completed a DOLs!

@Lemonlady22

You say your mum has dementia...she hasn't got the mental capacity to give her money away, it's called taking advantage of a vulnerable person. It's disgusting...no wonder the social workers has completed a DOLs!

Thank you I didn't ask for opinions I did say ... it's a mess and I need to sort it out

@bangaverage

Ok, in that case yes the LA will expect the house to be sold and all of the sale proceeds put towards your mum's care costs.

If your mum doesn't have mental capacity then your sister needs to pay all the money back into your mum's account. Your mum couldn't have consented to your sister having the money. If your mum does have mental capacity then she can sign a lasting power of attorney and you don't have to go through the COP.

The absolutely central thing you must remember is that your mum's assets are hers and should be used to pay for her care. You don't really have a choice about selling her house, the money for her care fees has to come from somewhere and £16k in the bank really won't last long.

Thank you very helpful

Mum doesn't have capacity

I realise home will be sold

Question is - after speaking to my sister - of £20,000 approx £10,000 spent

What happens about this?

I believe it is possible to rent your mum's house out and use the rent to pay for her care. From what I remember when an elderly relative was in a care home, her pension was used as part payment of her fees and she was left with a small amount, I think £25 per week for small expenses.

Her savings, similar amount to your dm, remained in the bank and were accessed by the elderly relative when she wanted to buy something for herself or give a gift to her grandchildren ect.

The rent plus pension covered some of the costs [not all] of her care. When she died, the house was sold and the remainder of costs were paid from the house sale. This meant that dear aunt fully met her commitment to pay for her own care but less of her total assets were used up.

I'm not sure how useful this information is to you op. Don't know if all local authorities operate in the same way. Some might want all of the costs as they occur. The other thing to mention is that my aunt did not have dementia and was fully involved with all of the decision making. Your own situation is different so not sure if you could go along the same route, even if you wished to.

Surely if rent is say £1500 a month and care home is 6k there’s going to be a massive deficit ?

@shiningstar2

I believe it is possible to rent your mum's house out and use the rent to pay for her care. From what I remember when an elderly relative was in a care home, her pension was used as part payment of her fees and she was left with a small amount, I think £25 per week for small expenses.

Her savings, similar amount to your dm, remained in the bank and were accessed by the elderly relative when she wanted to buy something for herself or give a gift to her grandchildren ect.

The rent plus pension covered some of the costs [not all] of her care. When she died, the house was sold and the remainder of costs were paid from the house sale. This meant that dear aunt fully met her commitment to pay for her own care but less of her total assets were used up.

I'm not sure how useful this information is to you op. Don't know if all local authorities operate in the same way. Some might want all of the costs as they occur. The other thing to mention is that my aunt did not have dementia and was fully involved with all of the decision making. Your own situation is different so not sure if you could go along the same route, even if you wished to.

Thank you very helpful I hadn't thought of that and will investigate

It's likely a safeguarding enquiry either be raised and your sister will have some questions to answer.

Your mum having dementia doesn't mean that she doesn't have the capacity to make the decision about whether to give the money away, but this will be assessed too.

It's possible that it would be seen as a deprivation of assets, in which case case will be charged as though this money is still in her possession. You won't know that until the local authority go through the financial assessment procedures, as you know she will be paying for her own care anyway.

It's possible her home won't have to be sold straight away, if she's eligible for a Deferred Payment and it suits her situation better.

And she will carry on receiving her pension while in care.

Talk to your local authority finance team or Google it and "paying for care". In certain circumstances its better better the local authority do the deputyship- get some proper advice though.

Independent Age and Age UK are excellent.

Safeguarding enquiry *will be raised, rather

Shocking, isn't it, that state pension seems to get stopped. What is the basis for that?

@De88

It's likely a safeguarding enquiry either be raised and your sister will have some questions to answer.

Your mum having dementia doesn't mean that she doesn't have the capacity to make the decision about whether to give the money away, but this will be assessed too.

It's possible that it would be seen as a deprivation of assets, in which case case will be charged as though this money is still in her possession. You won't know that until the local authority go through the financial assessment procedures, as you know she will be paying for her own care anyway.

It's possible her home won't have to be sold straight away, if she's eligible for a Deferred Payment and it suits her situation better.

And she will carry on receiving her pension while in care.

Talk to your local authority finance team or Google it and "paying for care". In certain circumstances its better better the local authority do the deputyship- get some proper advice though.

Independent Age and Age UK are excellent.

Thank you so much extremely helpful

State pension will continue if someone is paying their own fees.

Is your mum already in the home? Who is currently paying the fees? As part of the process of deciding that she needed to go into a home a financial assessment should have been done (assuming that social services were involved in the process). This would set out how the fees were to be paid and by whom. Do you have access to this? Have you spoken to the social worker?

Can the bank freeze her account?

@workwoes123

Is your mum already in the home? Who is currently paying the fees? As part of the process of deciding that she needed to go into a home a financial assessment should have been done (assuming that social services were involved in the process). This would set out how the fees were to be paid and by whom. Do you have access to this? Have you spoken to the social worker?

Complicated in that mum had a fall, went into a series of homes to recuperate, didn't recuperate adequately, came home but lasted a week before was taken back into hospital, then more hospitals and back in a care home since august 21. Then she had a stroke and was on end of life. Off end of life now and Got covid and Recovered and it was deemed she can't look after herself due to incontinence, very poor mobility, dementia, Parkinson's, frailty

It has been a stressful year!

Nothing will happen about it unless your mums money from the house sale isn't enough to cover the care fees and you apply to the LA to cover them. At that point they will do a financial assessment and they will be entitled to treat the missing ten thousand as though your mum still had it and decline to fund her care. That's what deprivation of assets means. The LA can't take back money but they can refuse to find care where money has been given away after the person knew that they had care needs.

Separately you could report it and a safeguarding investigation would take place but again they would not have any power to get the money back only the police can do that via a prosecution and that is very unlikely.

So for now as long as mum had money to pay for the care it will be fine but if that runs out the LA will ask qs.

How long has your mum been in the home?

Her monthly pension will be used to go towards the costs except for personal expenses allowance of £24.90 per week.

I believe your sister will have to pay this money back from the day your mother went into care.

Remember your mum is entitled to an assessment for continuing health care funding which would fund her care for free. It's hard to get it but if she is dying or she has very complex needs she may get it. She has a right to be assessed so ask the social workers if they have done the CHC checklist

When my husband's aunt (over 90 and with dementia) went into a home, her house was let. The rent didn't come anywhere close to covering the home fees, but she also used her state and occupational pensions, attendance allowance and some savings.

As a result, she didn't have to sell the house and her savings were used up at a slower rate.

I'm pretty sure that her state pension wasn't stopped. I think state pensions are only stopped when the person's care is being funded, which seems fair enough.

@CovoidOfAllHumanity

Remember your mum is entitled to an assessment for continuing health care funding which would fund her care for free. It's hard to get it but if she is dying or she has very complex needs she may get it. She has a right to be assessed so ask the social workers if they have done the CHC checklist

Thank you I will do that

@Lemonlady22

How long has she been in the care home? Your sister should not be taking any DWP pension out at all and you should inform them that your mother's in a home. After so many weeks in a care facility a pension is usually stopped. Your poor mother!

That’s not correct. Pensions continue until death. However, they can be used to pay for care.

@topcat2014

Shocking, isn't it, that state pension seems to get stopped. What is the basis for that?

It doesn’t.