Depravation of assets

[Kellymarie322]

Help/advice required please:

Mum has Parkinson’s and dementia and in a care home long term

She has assets of a bungalow £350,000, £16000 savings and £1,000 government old age pension monthly

My sister has obtained this £16k and is withdrawing mums pension every month. She said mum gave her passwords to online banking

My sister owns her own house.

Mum always gave a lot of her money away and has indeed given more to myself than my sister over her lifetime

I am applying through court of protection as there is no power of attorney

My question is:

My sister has spent the money / would the local authority put a charging order on her property?

Would she be prosecuted for fraud/theft? (She has a signed letter from mum that she can access her bank account for what that’s worth)

We are both down as next of kin on her will

Opinions are not helpful thank you only advice please would be very much appreciated

@CovoidOfAllHumanity

I think you are right the LA will not care until the house money runs out which might never happen and the CoP will not care unless you or someone else reports your sister for financial abuse. Even if they did do that it is very unlikely that anyone could make her pay the money back. In this situation in which your mum would not have objected and no-one has really lost out as she will still be self funding the care fees anyhow I have to say I would let sleeping dogs lie. In my professional capacity I'd be obliged not to but in a personal capacity if I were you I would make sure it never happens again (once you have the deputyship it will be you that's liable and you would get in trouble with the CoP for abuse of the power) and leave it at that.

Exactly - amen to that

@Kellymarie322

Thank you all - very informative

I think I have decided to do the deputyship forms myself and sell mums house (I know I have to)

The house sale will fund a good four years of care

I have decided to take the consequences regarding the missing £10k on behalf of my sisters well-being and my nieces and nephews and deal with it as and when I am chased for the money (hopefully not until the house sale money runs out)

After a very stressful 4 years, the pandemic making things unbearable - my family need to move on and find a way forward.

I hope I have not misunderstood anything!

Again, please get some proper advice before going any further.

I won't quote each one as there are too many but there is a LOT of incorrect info in the replies you've had.

Independent Age and Age UK are excellent. You can also speak with Parkinsons nurses if you have questions they might be able to help with regards progression, complex symptoms. Alzheimers Soxiety have a great booklet (free) about Continuig Health Care.

So sorry you're going through this OP, good luck

@topcat2014

Shocking, isn't it, that state pension seems to get stopped. What is the basis for that?

It will be stopped if she isn't self funding asthenia the local.authority os paying her vests. Not if she is self funding.

@CrimbleCrumble1

State pension will continue if someone is paying their own fees.

Exactly. It only gets stopped if the authorities are paying for the care home. Self funders won't have this issue. In my mil's case she received a small amount of money each week which was basically pocket money. My husband administered the account and had to keep a record of every expenditure. It all went on his mum.

Op, what has your sister spent this money on?

Of course the state pension should be stopped once someone goes into a home. The pension won't be anywhere near enough to cover the costs, but the person is housed, fed and cared for and no longer needs all of their pension.

It's obviously different for self funders.

@countrygirl99 - please can you provide the source for your confirmation that state pension payments are stopped if the person isn't self funding. I have tried to look for this and can't find anything that states pension payments are stopped, only that they may be used to pay for care.Thank you.

@Kellymarie322 - I don't think the police would be involved at all. I would definitely recommend using a solicitor for the Deputyship application. The first couple of forms seem straightforward - but then you have certain forms you have to give to certain people, and my Solicitor explained all this to me and made sure everything was correct before sending to the COP.

Also, I know I have provided quite a bit of info, this has all come from my experience / personal situation and is relevant to me. Whilst a PP has stated there is a lot if incorrect info you have been given, it is worth bearing in mind it is probably relevant to that person, and each individual case / each person's circumstances / experience might be slightly different.

Hope you get sorted and most of all that your mum is safe and well looked after.

I haven't got a link but MIL was in z care home with LA funding for a couple of years after a stroke. She was left with just over £20 a week for bits and pieces.

www.which.co.uk/money/pensions-and-retirement/state-pension/your-state-pension-and-benefits/how-moving-into-a-care-home-affects-your-pension-and-benefits-a5g0n7u5cvg4

This might help Hiphopboppertybop99. It's not so much that state pension will stop, it's that the pension will be used to fund the care. The person will be allowed to keep an amount of £24.90 a week for their personal use. This amount differs slightly in Scotland and Wales. This is what happened to my mil, so I speal from experience.

Speak, not speal.

@countrygirl99 - thank you, I have looked at a few reputable websites for info and all seem to state pension payments shouldn't be affected. Obviously any DLA or Attendance Allowance payments are stopped. It's a bit confusing then given your situation. I think I will need to look into this a bit more. Thank you for your reply.

Hi @knittingaddict - thank you for your reply and that was one if the websites I had looked at. Yes that was exactly my dad's situation his pension was taken into account as income and he was left with the £24.90 weekly for personal expenditure.
He has since moved to CHC and I'm trying to ascertain if he should now no longer receive his pension payment. Thank you.

@CovoidOfAllHumanity

OP says her mum always gave a lot of money to her children and the sister has a letter saying she can access the bank account It's far from clear that this is stealing or that it is criminal or appalling. It might be in line with her mums wishes. A lot of people voluntarily give money away to avoid care fees not knowing about the deprivation rules or they give money away to avoid death duties. The state will regard it as deprivation of assets but it won't be prosecuted as a crime as it will not be able to be proven that the sister did not have a reasonable belief that she had permission.

The problem with this is that the mother now cannot confirm that she said her daughter could take this money, she would have had to complete a very detailed form from the bank in order to give her daughter access to her accounts, therefore it IS theft, and is absolutely appalling! The proof is on the sister that her mother gave her permission to take this money. Maybe try speaking to someone in banking who knows about fraud, which is what this is.

assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/515055/Guidance-for-people-wanting-to-manage-a-bank-account-for-someone-else.pdf

I don't think you get it! Our family has been through hell and accusing my sister of theft isn't going to help anyone - my mum gave her permission - although she has dementia it it not a constant - she has days whereby she is quite ok and other days when she is not. I did ask for non judgemental advice - it is not appalling only a lack of judgement and ignorence - please take your views elsewhere they are not required here

I'm not in banking but I am in elderly care and I deal with stuff like this all the time. I did skim read the document you sent and it's nothing I didn't already know but this is the real world. Not everyone is doing things properly. Loads of people have mums bank card to do her shopping without filling in any forms. They shouldn't but they do and they are not all criminals.
situations where it genuinely starts off with the person having capacity and giving access voluntarily and then getting frailer and losing capacity are ten a penny.
I have known cases far more heinous than this that are not prosecuted. The police always say that it is not possible to prove there was no permission.
A person is innocent until proven guilty. The burden of proof is on the person accusing the sister not on her.
The mother is not able to bear witness one way or the other so what the sister says about having permission a) is not able to be disproved and b) fits with the mothers usual pattern of behaviour of giving gifts to her children.
It would appear to me that no-one has lost out here. The mum doesn't need that money and would have chosen to give it to her kids anyway or to leave it in her will to them, OP isn't upset about losing out on her share of a possible future inheritance and the state was not defrauded as the house proceeds will pay the care fees anyway. I cannot manage to feel appalled about this if OP isn't

If your sister is drawing your mums pension and spending it you need to stop her now. My parents had to provide evidence of where grandmas pension was being saved and receipt for the spends they made for her while she was in nursing home.

All it take is one family member to become disgruntled and flag your sister.

Sadly, given what you've said about your DM's state of health it seems unlikely that the proceeds of the house sale will be exhausted. It's also highly unlikely that her estate would attract inheritance tax.

It appears that of the three parties who might have cause to object to your DSis's actions (you, your mother and the local authority) none will actually feel aggrieved so there's no need to listen to anyone getting agitated on here.

@Kellymarie322

I don't think you get it! Our family has been through hell and accusing my sister of theft isn't going to help anyone - my mum gave her permission - although she has dementia it it not a constant - she has days whereby she is quite ok and other days when she is not. I did ask for non judgemental advice - it is not appalling only a lack of judgement and ignorence - please take your views elsewhere they are not required here

Someone needs to protect your mother. Certainly you and your sister aren’t. If you think I’m wrong, then feel free to speak to your mothers bank. Tell them what you’ve told us - your mum has dementia, is in full time residential care and your sister is withdrawing money from her account. If all she is doing is paying bills on the house your mum owns, such as gas, electric, water etc, then that’s ok. But from what you say she isn’t. She’s taking money that does NOT belong to her. Financial abuse of the elderly is very very real.

@CovoidOfAllHumanity

I'm not in banking but I am in elderly care and I deal with stuff like this all the time. I did skim read the document you sent and it's nothing I didn't already know but this is the real world. Not everyone is doing things properly. Loads of people have mums bank card to do her shopping without filling in any forms. They shouldn't but they do and they are not all criminals. situations where it genuinely starts off with the person having capacity and giving access voluntarily and then getting frailer and losing capacity are ten a penny. I have known cases far more heinous than this that are not prosecuted. The police always say that it is not possible to prove there was no permission. A person is innocent until proven guilty. The burden of proof is on the person accusing the sister not on her. The mother is not able to bear witness one way or the other so what the sister says about having permission a) is not able to be disproved and b) fits with the mothers usual pattern of behaviour of giving gifts to her children. It would appear to me that no-one has lost out here. The mum doesn't need that money and would have chosen to give it to her kids anyway or to leave it in her will to them, OP isn't upset about losing out on her share of a possible future inheritance and the state was not defrauded as the house proceeds will pay the care fees anyway. I cannot manage to feel appalled about this if OP isn't

The OP has said her sister has had £20 thousand pounds, and has spent half of it. She’s not spent that on her mother’s weekly shopping!

I’m appalled at the number of poster on here that think it’s ok to take money from someone who no longer has capacity. Some of you seem to have no idea on the law.
If one person has taken money from another persons account, and that person DOES NOT HAVE CAPACITY, then they cannot have given them permission to take it. It doesn’t matter if they were happy for them to have the money WHEN THEY DID HAVE CAPACITY.
Bank: from 1st of January medical records show that Mrs Smith no longer had capacity to manage her own financial affairs. Daughter of Mrs Smith, you took £20,000 from your mothers bank account during the rest of January using her debit card. Can you explain why you did that?
Daughter: she told me before that I could help myself to her money so I just carried on.
Bank: this is fraud. The money needs to be returned.
Daughter: but I thought it was OK.
Bank: no, it’s fraud. Return it.

It’s almost like some people can’t wait for their parents to die before they get their hands on their cash.

Are the LA aware of this £20k? I keep seeing that it's "missing".

FWIW I don't think anything will come of this. A friends SIL was actually stealing thousands of pounds from her SILs savings and withdrawing of her pension before she went into to full funded care. No POA or anything.

The family KNEW she was doing it, reported it to LA and Police and even provided bank statements that she had hidden showing the money withdrawals even when she was in the home.

It was theft and fraud. No question about it. It only came to light after she died when extended family had to sort out her paperwork as the SIL was stalling (funnily enough) Nothing was ever done about it as there was no proof that permission wasn't given. Poor woman left a legacy of £20 in her bank account.

@Soontobe60 - I don't think anyone agrees with, and thinks it's perfectly ok what the OP sister did. EVEN THE OP.
OP has been asking for some info / advice on what could potentially happen to her sister / the money. It sounds like this situation came about quite quickly, their mum was on end of life care at some point. We don't know the full story, we don't know when the OP became aware of what was happening with regards to her sister and the money, but it sounds as though the OP is now left with the responsibility of sorting the whole situation out. She has acknowledged her sister was in the wrong and she has already put a stop to her accessing any more money.

Does your sister have receipts for what the money was spent on?

@Lovelydovey

Does your sister have receipts for what the money was spent on?

Yes I do have receipts for some of the expenditure - some if it my sister has had I think to pay her debts - some had been spent on mums bungalow (no washing machine or working shower)

Mum has supported financially and emotionally my sister since my sister was widowed 6 years ago and suffered with mental health issues (anxiety documented by doctors)

A long story but basically mum deteriorated physically quickly during covid - horrendous situation in that she lived in a chair - not much help from authorities and mum wouldn't accept help only from nearest living relative - I.e my sister and her daughters

My mum and sister supported each other - hence I do not feel angry towards my sister only that I have to sort it out. She didn't know what would happen to mum and everyone always hoped mum would return home with a care package - she did and it failed and mums comorbidities too much