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Old sayings and how they came about

62 replies

Snooks1971 · 12/02/2022 20:28

Yes I could Google but where’s the fun in that?!

Red rag to a bull….. also I grew up (rurally) knowing never to wear red knickers whilst in a field with a bull Confused what a bizarre piece of information to give to a child.

Anyone shed any light? And add your sayings and whys/wherefores too please 😊

OP posts:
OnlyAFleshWound · 12/02/2022 22:44

@Itsmeandhim

Room to swing a cat. The CAT was actually a whip. Corporal punishment was usually carried out in a cabin on a ship. Hense no room to swing a cat.
Nope

wordhistories.net/2017/05/09/no-room-to-swing-a-cat/

OnlyAFleshWound · 12/02/2022 22:45

@Rummikub

That’s interesting! Thank you

Shame not true I liked them😬

Of course, they're nice and neat and appealing... but the real histories of words and phrases are usually much more interesting, although messier and more disputed.
Mykittensmittens · 12/02/2022 22:49

@ButtockUp

Beak-like plague masks weren't known to be worn in England. Not sure about other UK countries though.
Right - the beaky mask was much later and in Italy and France in subsequent outbreaks but never in the U.K.

ring-a-ring-a-roses, the childrens playground song, is a plague legacy too although lots contest that. If you like going down a rabbit hole it’s worth a google!

Rummikub · 12/02/2022 22:49

Dare I say that women were dressed and that’s why their clothes button opposite way to mens..

OnlyAFleshWound · 12/02/2022 22:49

Oh and the scratch marks inside the coffin/dead ringer thing is balls too
www.thoughtco.com/the-dead-in-medieval-times-1788704

OldTinHat · 12/02/2022 23:04

Three square meals a day comes from the square wooden plates that sailors in the navy ate their meals off.

dipdye · 12/02/2022 23:07

These are great!

'Hold your horses'

Said when people rode horses and had to stop, literally

Howshouldibehave · 12/02/2022 23:16

@OldTinHat

Three square meals a day comes from the square wooden plates that sailors in the navy ate their meals off.
Yes-we were told that on the tour at Portsmouth Historic dockyards. The square plates took up less space.
OnlyAFleshWound · 12/02/2022 23:18

@OldTinHat

Three square meals a day comes from the square wooden plates that sailors in the navy ate their meals off.
Nope

www.grammarphobia.com/blog/2019/06/square-meal.html

www.phrases.org.uk/meanings/square-meal.html

AllTheYoungGoodyTwoShoes · 12/02/2022 23:22

I have heard a story that the Dutch army in the past gave their soldiers gin or some kind of alcohol to get them into battle- therefore the saying Dutch Courage.

People used to get taxed on the number of windows they had in their houses so would brick up or block off their windows, giving the saying Daylight Robbery. In Glasgow there are many old buildings and tenements where the windows have been bricked up.

Talking about the beaked man or doctor- if you go on a tour of Mary King's Close in Edinburgh- they talk about this, where someone dressed in the PPE of the day during the plagues, would go round making sure people were not going outside. The mask looked like it had a break on it.

Mundra · 12/02/2022 23:23

Pretty sure that wakes were invented long before the Tudor times too. Jewish people stay up with people that have died, until they're buried.

dipdye · 12/02/2022 23:25

I love the daylight robbery one, who knew?!

AllTheYoungGoodyTwoShoes · 12/02/2022 23:27

The mask had a beak not break Hmm

ClariceQuiff · 12/02/2022 23:35

Letting the cat out of the bag: a cat (valueless at the time) would be substituted for an expensive piglet and sold in a sack - opening the sack would reveal the truth by 'letting the cat out of the bag'.

An early version of that I-phone you bought on eBay turning out to be a bottle of shampoo when you open the parcel.

OhWhyNot · 12/02/2022 23:38

Pub crawl I thought this term came about as someone would be so drunk on a night out they would have to cruel to the next pub

The term came about as in the 18th and 19th centuries the Navy would visit pubs on the Isle of Dogs and gather up young men for the navy (was called impressment the term press gang came from this). Tunnels had been built so the men who had been tipped off could escape by crawling up the next pub (there were many pubs in the area)

Hellsinky · 12/02/2022 23:57

Sweet FA / Sweet Fanny Adams cones from a girl named Fanny Adams. She was murdered at the age of 8 in 1867, and newspapers focused on her sweet nature.

Royal Navy sailors in the 1860s used the phrase Sweet Fanny Adams to describe tinned meat of dubious origins.

dentistattic · 13/02/2022 04:42

Historically ( and less so now) as you get older, your gums recede, the bone support around your teeth gets less. Hence the phrase "Getting long in the tooth"

Mintyt · 13/02/2022 07:11

@BashfulClam amazing x thank you

TerrifiedandWorried · 13/02/2022 07:14

@Mintyt - they're not true

MrsJackRackham · 13/02/2022 08:05

@AllTheYoungGoodyTwoShoes most of the tenements in Glasgow were built after the repeal of the window tax in 1851. A lot of the bricked up windows are actually toilet windows in the close that were bricked up when each flat got a bathroom added. Some of them are deliberate architectural features for symmetry.
Although the phrase Daylight Robbery is about the window tax Smile

Bedsheets4knickers · 13/02/2022 08:09

@BashfulClam

They used to use urine to tan animal skins, so families used to all pee in a pot & then once a day it was taken & Sold to the tannery.......if you had to do this to survive you were "Piss Poor" But worse than that were the really poor folk who couldn't even afford to buy a pot......they "didn't have a pot to piss in" & were the lowest of the low. The next time you are washing your hands and complain because the water temperature isn't just how you like it, think about how things used to be.

Here are some facts about the 1500s:

Most people got married in June because they took their yearly bath in May, and they still smelled pretty good by June.. However, since they were starting to smell . ...... . Brides carried a bouquet of flowers to hide the body odor. Hence the custom today of carrying a bouquet when getting Married.

Baths consisted of a big tub filled with hot water. The man of the house had the privilege of the nice clean water, then all the other sons and men, then the women and finally the children. Last of all the babies. By then the water was so dirty you could actually lose someone in it.. Hence the saying, "Don't throw the baby out with the Bath water!"

Houses had thatched roofs-thick straw-piled high, with no wood underneath. It was the only place for animals to get warm, so all the cats and other small animals (mice, bugs) lived in the roof. When it rained it became slippery and sometimes the animals would slip and fall off the roof... Hence the saying "It's raining cats and dogs."

There was nothing to stop things from falling into the house. This posed a real problem in the bedroom where bugs and other droppings could mess up your nice clean bed. Hence, a bed with big posts and a sheet hung over the top afforded some protection. That's how canopy beds came into existence.

The floor was dirt. Only the wealthy had something other than dirt. Hence the saying, "Dirt poor." The wealthy had slate floors that would get slippery in the winter when wet, so they spread thresh (straw) on floor to help keep their footing. As the winter wore on, they added more thresh until, when you opened the door, it would all start slipping outside. A piece of wood was placed in the entrance-way. Hence: a thresh hold.

In those old days, they cooked in the kitchen with a big kettle that always hung over the fire.. Every day they lit the fire and added things to the pot. They ate mostly vegetables and did not get much meat. They would eat the stew for dinner, leaving leftovers in the pot to get cold overnight and then start over the next day. Sometimes stew had food in it that had been there for quite a while. Hence the rhyme: Peas porridge hot, peas porridge cold, peas porridge in the pot nine days old. Sometimes they could obtain pork, which made them feel quite special. When visitors came over, they would hang up their bacon to show off. It was a sign of wealth that a man could, "bring home the bacon." They would cut off a little to share with guests and would all sit around and chew the fat.

Those with money had plates made of pewter. Food with high acid content caused some of the lead to leach onto the food, causing lead poisoning death. This happened most often with tomatoes, so for the next 400 years or so, tomatoes were considered poisonous.

Bread was divided according to status. Workers got the burnt bottom of the loaf, the family got the middle, and guests got the top, or the upper crust.

Lead cups were used to drink ale or whisky. The combination would Sometimes knock the imbibers out for a couple of days. Someone walking along the road would take them for dead and prepare them for burial.. They were laid out on the kitchen table for a couple of days and the family would gather around and eat and drink and wait and see if they would wake up. Hence the custom of holding a wake.

England is old and small and the local folks started running out of places to bury people. So they would dig up coffins and would take the bones to a bone-house, and reuse the grave. When reopening these coffins, 1 out of 25 coffins were found to have scratch marks on the inside and they realized they had been burying people alive... So they would tie a string on the wrist of the corpse, lead it through the coffin and up through the ground and tie it to a bell. Someone would have to sit out in the graveyard all night (the graveyard shift.) to listen for the bell; thus, someone could be, saved by the bell or was considered a dead ringer.

Brilliant, I loved reading that .
StarlightLady · 13/02/2022 08:18

I expect several of these have different regional interpretations. And I’m typing this with red knickers on (plus leggings and a top!) so clearly l have not paid attention to the rules 😮.

A sad one is “rule of thumb” which meant a man could not beat his wife with anything thicker than his thumb

SydneyCarton · 13/02/2022 08:26

Not a phrase, but I read that the origin of putting your elbows on the table being a bad thing relates to the press gangs. Sailors were used to putting their elbows on the table when eating on board to counteract the motion of the ship. If the press gangs saw a man in the pub with his elbows on the table they could assume he had some sailing experience and would be more likely to grab him, so it was safer to keep them off.

MrsJackRackham · 13/02/2022 08:28

I've also read that rule of thumb is to do with milling flour, the miller would rub the flour between his fingers and if it was too course it would be milled again.
But who knows?? Probably a bit of both.

ShowOfHands · 13/02/2022 08:29

The phrases we use are as interesting as the myths we build up around them. It's even more interesting that we can see this sort of thing happening around us in real time. How many people think that tag stands for "touch and go" or that all toasters work to minutes because it went viral on Facebook and it doesn't matter how many times you counter the assertions (see above), the neat little myths persist. It's mostly harmless but swathes of people also think we give houses to illegal immigrants and believe things people write on buses. These things will always persist.

I have quite a few books on the origin of phrases and there's disagreement across a couple of them. It's still fascinating though, even if we're not quite sure about some of the original meanings.

I also quite like reading about the different idioms used by other countries. They sound bonkers sometimes but no more bonkers than ours must sound to them.

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