Why do schools finish at 3?

[snowdropsandcrocuses]

Genuine question but before teachers come gunning for me, let me explain.

In particular I am referring to secondary schools here and have just been reading the thread on teachers having ridiculously short lunch breaks which got me thinking.

Why is there such a rush to finish school early? Finishing school at 4pm for example, would allow longer lunch breaks (giving teachers and pupils a full break plus allowing lunch clubs more time), could factor in a little more transition time and just take a bit of pressure off. It would definitely help parents as well. I'm struggling to see the negatives. This is not to say I want teachers to work even harder because I don't but I wonder if there is a particular mandate that dictates the maximum 'opening hours' of comprehensive schools?

@ShallWeTalkAboutBruno

Bloody hell, it’s no wonder kids play up if they’re constantly being told they’re ‘wild’ and ‘cause havoc’ and can’t be trusted to have a decent lunch break.

Exactly what I was thinking - they are still children despite being older.

Sounds like a punishment rather than an environment where they learn. How utterly depressing

Apart from the choice to pay staff you mean? If the school day is extended and staff are to run clubs in their lunch break, they must be paid.

Also the issue is that most staff work long into the evening. We would just be extending that so have more knackered staff.

I wouldn't put a child in a taxi with a driver who has done 100 hours yet we are happy to put our kids in the care of school staff who are running upwards of 100 hours in some cases and think that is perfectly acceptable.

@letsghostdance

You don't want to give children more time at lunch time.

It's just more opportunity for them to go rogue.

At my DS's old school, the half an hour lunchtime, together with the rule that you were only allowed to eat in the canteen, plus the canteen being physically too small for the number of pupils, meant that a lot of kids didn't bother to èven try to get lunch. My DS ate lunch maybe twice a week, max, his entire secondary school time, and left with an ED.

More time would have made all the difference.

@ShallWeTalkAboutBruno

Bloody hell, it’s no wonder kids play up if they’re constantly being told they’re ‘wild’ and ‘cause havoc’ and can’t be trusted to have a decent lunch break.

I agree. The idea of shortening the lunch break to avoid behaviour problems is such a cop out. My DD’s school finishes at 3.20pm 3 days a week, and 3pm on 2 days. They’ve recently changed the timing of the school day making it earlier (8.30 start instead of 8.45). They used to finish at 3.45pm.

A short lunch break means some kids will spend the entire break queuing for food. I agree it’s a horrible rush. I would give them a proper lunch break of at least an hour, time to eat and go to a club.

I couldn't get all my work done if school finished any later. Can't really do any proper work at lunch because we usually have crappy meetings or duties of some kind and we have to set up for the afternoon.

Like, I literally got marched from the building tonight at 7pm by the careraker because he was locking up and I still hadn't finished.

When I was a kid we had 90 minutes for lunch

Happy days

Schools don't tell kids they're 'wild' and 'cause havoc'. But kids do if unattended or in the building without permission:
Leave litter everywhere
Steal from your drawers
Take exercise books and wreck them
Run up and down corridors
Bang on doors of classes being taught
Respond incredibly rudely when asked to go outside

And yes, it's shit for those kids who just want to sit somewhere and chill. But even nice kids do stupid and thoughtless things sometimes. And can you imagine the shitstorm if some kid got hurt inside the building, and no teacher was supervising?

It might be a choice, but it's a logical choice given the constraints of the British state school system. The average class size in the EU is 20. 20! Of we had that kind of staff student ratio, I expect we'd be able to do things quite differently here too. Add 50% to the size of each class and there's just more work for everyone, and there's fewer staff to supervise the students.

@TheMoth at my kids school kids can leave school premises at lunchtime from Y11 up. Actually only the Y11s bother - unless it's a really nice day the Y12 and 13s retreat to the 6th form block.

Its really depressing to read how widespread behavioural problems are at other schools. I can remember when schools were going back in 2020 teachers swearing you couldn't leave classes in situ whilst the teachers move classroom as they'd be unsupervised for 5 minutes and it would be chaos but that happens at my kids school all the time and, again, it's fine.

. Can teachers earn overtime?

There's 2 elements to a teachers contract. Directed time is 1265hrs over 195 days when school is open, where the headteacher directs you to be in a certain place or doing a certain task. So I'm directed to teach yr 11 on a friday p5, I'm directed to be in assembly. I'm directed to attend staff meetings and staff training. I'm directed to be on break duty on the field.

Then there's undirected time, which has no limit and includes everything else that a teacher needs to do in order to fulfil their role. The headteacher can't tell me where to be when I do this, or when I do this. So it includes marking, planning, prep, phoning parents, revision classes with my students. I can take my marking home and do that at 9pm if I want.

So the head can tell me where to be and how to spend about 6.5hours per day on average. But teachers also have a good few hours on top of that for informal meetings, making resources, planning, calling parents, helping a kid with their work, helping a kid who is upset, marking books, etc.

If the students didn't go home until 4, my day wouldn't finish until 7. That's a 12 hour day; I would never see my kids.

@TheMoth really sorry that's been your experience, really glad it's not been ours (just checked with my Y11 and Y9 and they dont recognize the picture you are painting luckily. I guess their school is the exception).

If any of you have teenagers have you actually asked them if they would prefer a longer lunch? Ours are lining up by the doors and have to be sent away 5-10 mins before lessons resume. They were over the moon at a shorter day. If the kids don’t want it, the staff don’t want it, it wouldn’t be for more learning … it’s just free childcare really then is it?

And lots of kids don't want to go to clubs. Yr 7 do, but very few after that. Unless it's a sport.

The kids who cause trouble at lunch don't tend to be the ones who want to go to clubs.

No need whatsoever to have a longer day. Some countries finish by 2 to 2.30pm including Finland. Jeez @snowdropsandcrocuses give the kids a break!

I know 2 families with 6 children between them who homeschooled, and they only did 'lessons' from 9.30am til 1.30pm, and the children had top grades in everything. All children went to university and are now doing well in their careers. There is no need to have such a long school day.

[quote Porcupineintherough]@TheMoth really sorry that's been your experience, really glad it's not been ours (just checked with my Y11 and Y9 and they dont recognize the picture you are painting luckily. I guess their school is the exception).[/quote]
My 16 year old stepsister goes home ravenous because she often doesn’t have time to eat… by the time they’ve all queued she has, at best, 5 mins to stiff a sandwich down. Yes she’d prefer a longer lunch.

Finish at 2.35 here, half hour for lunch. All children eat in the canteen which is too small for everyone to sit in so a large breakfast and home and a quick for lunch. Y11 have an extra hour on their day so they finish at 3.35.

@HelloFrostyMorning

No need whatsoever to have a longer day. Some countries finish by 2 to 2.30pm including Finland. Jeez *@snowdropsandcrocuses* give the kids a break!

I know 2 families with 6 children between them who homeschooled, and they only did 'lessons' from 9.30am til 1.30pm, and the children had top grades in everything. All children went to university and are now doing well in their careers. There is no need to have such a long school day.

I bet they had time to eat their lunch though.

[quote Porcupineintherough]@TheMoth really sorry that's been your experience, really glad it's not been ours (just checked with my Y11 and Y9 and they dont recognize the picture you are painting luckily. I guess their school is the exception).[/quote]
Yep. In the last 3 schools I've been in, and the dc's, from what they tell me. It's got worse over the last 10 years though.

@snowdropsandcrocuses

Interesting responses.

To those who are surprised by the 3pm finish, our local secondary starts at 8:35 and finishes at 3pm.

To the teachers that have responded, I'm interested to know what your 'contracted hours' are. I realise that with the onslaught of academies which essentially privatised the school system under our noses that the old 'public sector' rules went out the window but I am assuming you all have contracted hours. What are you 'supposed' to work. I note some have said 8-4 would push them over their 40hr week however lunch breaks are not paid so 8-4 Monday to Friday would equal 40hrs - minus 1hr lunch/break which would equal 7hour days x 5 = 35hours.

I realise teachers work many many more hours than that - which is supposedly balanced out by your holidays (I know you work them too).

Did you read the posts about meetings, calling parents etc that happens after students get home? So you’d be pushing all that back.

@Spottybotty20

If any of you have teenagers have you actually asked them if they would prefer a longer lunch? Ours are lining up by the doors and have to be sent away 5-10 mins before lessons resume. They were over the moon at a shorter day. If the kids don’t want it, the staff don’t want it, it wouldn’t be for more learning … it’s just free childcare really then is it?

I feel your pain!

In Scotland, going back to the Scottish winter thing - yes schools need to stop at 3 to enable parents and kids to get fully home in the grey daylight. ( fully dark by 340! In the depths of winter here )

I find finishing 3pm late. I come from country where school starts at 8am and finishes for ages 11+ at 1.30pm every day, for ages 15+ its usually until 4pm once or twice a week.

Ds school finished at 2.45pm but my niece's school doesn't finish until 5.00pm, it's a Michaela type school. Most of the schools around here are done by 3.00pm.

@TheChip

Ours doesn't even make it til 3pm. They finish at 2:45. 8:45-2:45

Is this secondary school? That's crazy!!

School is 3.30 finish here.

School isn't childcare but how are parents meant to work around that.
So much time in after school club