Judging people on moral grounds when you don't live a particularly moral life

[QuestionsorComments]

This is a situation that's causing a ridiculous amount of upset in a small team of senior professionals. Yes, they really should all grow up, but in the absence of that, I and the only other member to have remained mostly neutral have been discussing "what is to be done".

We work in a very high stress environment working with vulnerable young people and all carry a certain amount of emotional baggage. In front of service users and other staff we are all highly professional. However, in our weekly leadership meetings there is a certain amount of offloading and some inappropriate jokes, banter, gossip. Very much in the room, everyone understands it's our safe space.

One member of the team cannot accept this though and is offended by every off colour joke or non PC term used. And she's right really, but we do all understand the correct way to behave when appropriate.

Anyway, broadly I support her position, but a couple of the other team members find it very hard to accept her lecturing them on moral issues when she's very open that she's been in a relationship with a married man for 10 years+.

They obviously need to behave professionally in a professional situation, but take exception to being told how to behave by someone who behaves badly, even though the situations are not connected. One man in particular finds it very hard because he has been the wronged party in that situation.

It's not really about who's right or wrong, but how we get this team to work together, whilst respecting her right not to be offended and everyone else's need to let off steam.

Any ideas at all?

Her being an OW is not a reason for people to continue to make some of the group uncomfortable with their 'banter'

Leadership team meeting is a professional situation.

They should offload lunch, coffee machine etc. Not in situations others can hear.

Imo.

Having an affair is individual.

Saying whatever about vulnerable service users, at leadership meeting not same at all.

You can also talk about the ow thing when informal situations.

Understand dark humour difficult jobs but this meeting really not place for it.

@CheeseMmmm

Leadership team meeting is a professional situation.

They should offload lunch, coffee machine etc. Not in situations others can hear.

Imo.

They're offloading in this meeting not at lunch or by the coffee machine precisely because this is an opportunity where no one "else" hears. There's usually 30 mins before the start of the formal meeting to get this stuff out of the way.

It's hard to explain. It's not that the banter makes her uncomfortable personally, it's never aimed at her, but the language used might be out dated with more positive words more accepted now. I do agree the OW situation isn't a reason for professional behaviour towards her to change, but it is part of what forms their opinion of her.

@CheeseMmmm

Leadership team meeting is a professional situation.

They should offload lunch, coffee machine etc. Not in situations others can hear.

Imo.

Yeah, I agree with this.

She’s not judging them based on what choices they make in their private lives. She’s judging them based on how they’re behaving during the working day.

They might think it’s their ‘safe space’ but it isn’t. It’s their workplace. If there was an undercover Panorama reporter recording every word, how much trouble would they be in? Would it cause damage to your employer’s reputation?

She's not conducting her affair in the office during meetings, is she?

No, thought not.

We all work across different sites so this weekly meeting is really the only time we're all together to get issues off chests.

No one should have to feel uncomfortable like that in a work situation. Why can’t you lot “offload” down the pub?

@Sn0tnose

She’s not judging them based on what choices they make in their private lives. She’s judging them based on how they’re behaving during the working day.

They might think it’s their ‘safe space’ but it isn’t. It’s their workplace. If there was an undercover Panorama reporter recording every word, how much trouble would they be in? Would it cause damage to your employer’s reputation?

Actually I think it would be fine. It's really not extreme, she seems to enjoy being able to find things to moralise over. The employing body would absolutely recognise the need for these "peer supervision" sessions, which is the technical term for it in our field.

@FabriqueBelgique

No one should have to feel uncomfortable like that in a work situation. Why can’t you lot “offload” down the pub?

Because it is recognised in the nature of our work that this offload is necessary and time should be allowed in the working week.

Being racist, sexist, homophobic etc even in the context of "dark humour" and offloading has certainly been enough to see many police officer sacked after covert recordings were made.

Your colleague, OW or not, is quite right to make her complaints known. Your other colleagues, and potentially you by failing to challenge them, are being inappropriate and could find themselves in huge trouble.

Out dated language is probably a very minimising phrase.

I'd watch for the shit to hit the fan and hope none hits you.

Nobody should be making ‘off colour’ remarks. I’m assuming you’re referring to racist/sexist/homophobic language?

This is totally unacceptable, not to mention illegal.

There is no such thing as a safe space when it comes to comments like this, they’re unacceptable everywhere (even in your own home). By not calling them out, every time you hear them, you’re just as involved too.

Her affair is a completely different matter, and nothing to do with you at all.

I really can’t fathom the idea that hate speech is in any way a logical equivalent to having an affair, who actually thinks this?

It's not that no one calls them out, they use them for effect because we all know they shouldn't and wouldn't in any other situation.

But my question wasn't about that, it's about how you get a group of people with no respect for one another (both sides with valid reasons) to work well together.

FWIW I'm not in charge and the person who is is in the thick of this.

It's fine to have a safe space to get things off your chest OP.
However, it is not okay to do that using inappropriate language and references, as you describe. It just isn't.
Would each of the people making these jokes and comments and being involved in the 'banter' be happy to have what they had said reported publicly? I do doubt it - in which case, they shouldn't say it.

The problem is not with the judging colleague. You can all have your own views on her morality, but that isfor outside work.
You should ALL recognise how inappropriate the banter is, and how it suggedtsa lack of respect for your clients. She should not be in the position of being a police officer to a group of trusted professionals.

@FabriqueBelgique

No one should have to feel uncomfortable like that in a work situation. Why can’t you lot “offload” down the pub?

Sounds like they'd get thrown out!

I get the dark humour needed sometimes in certain types of work, but I’d be drawing a firm line at talking about service users disrespectfully or using racist or other discriminatory language. If that’s her issue I’d support her in that. My concern is that the “humour” carries over into work with vulnerable people, who can be challenging behaviour wise but still deserve respect in public and in private. Her affair is no ones business assuming she’s not inviting anyone to take part.

OK, so if no one should be made to feel uncomfortable presumably that includes oversharing details of a relationship that causes distress to some team members, who've experienced similar behaviour?

This is what we're up against. Yes they should grow up, but there's an attitude of why should I care how she feels when she doesn't care about anyone else.

@QuestionsorComments

It's not that no one calls them out, they use them for effect because we all know they shouldn't and wouldn't in any other situation.

But my question wasn't about that, it's about how you get a group of people with no respect for one another (both sides with valid reasons) to work well together.

FWIW I'm not in charge and the person who is is in the thick of this.

No. This isn't a question of competing morals.

It's a question of whether workplace behaviour is inappropriate. Not whether a woman objecting to inappropriate language and behaviour in the workplace should be ignored because of who she is having sex with. It's not the 60s.

This is about a group using language you state is for effect in a professional environment where it shouldn't be accepted at all.

Deeply unprofessional.

I mean no one would know anything of this if she hadn't told them at these meetings.

She's right. You're not friends your colleagues and should be professional/ cordial only unless in your own personal time.

So the cat is out the bag about the affair. Have a word with her as a mate about her over sharing. Then have a word with management about the inappropriate language used in the workplace. These are not comparable issues.

you're at work, you should be behaving professionally. Even offloading down the pub could be inappropriate if it could be deemed to be a work gathering, ie mainly work people and bring your company into disrepute. You need to be very careful, I have sacked people for 'banter' and jokes in what they believed to be a prviate space but which others were party to and found offensive

It is not a safe space is it? Anything you say in that room can be reported to someone much higher and then what response would you give to justify your behaviour.

This woman is being used as an excuse for poor behaviour practices in leadership meetings, good for her for not standing by and condoning it.

Her affair is her business no one else's, stop using her as an excuse.

I work with a male collegue SLT, who made disgusting sexist remarks about a vistor to the school I work in. It was laughed off but l reported it as it made me feel uncomfort

@Pixilicious

you're at work, you should be behaving professionally. Even offloading down the pub could be inappropriate if it could be deemed to be a work gathering, ie mainly work people and bring your company into disrepute. You need to be very careful, I have sacked people for 'banter' and jokes in what they believed to be a prviate space but which others were party to and found offensive

This.