Judging people on moral grounds when you don't live a particularly moral life

[QuestionsorComments]

This is a situation that's causing a ridiculous amount of upset in a small team of senior professionals. Yes, they really should all grow up, but in the absence of that, I and the only other member to have remained mostly neutral have been discussing "what is to be done".

We work in a very high stress environment working with vulnerable young people and all carry a certain amount of emotional baggage. In front of service users and other staff we are all highly professional. However, in our weekly leadership meetings there is a certain amount of offloading and some inappropriate jokes, banter, gossip. Very much in the room, everyone understands it's our safe space.

One member of the team cannot accept this though and is offended by every off colour joke or non PC term used. And she's right really, but we do all understand the correct way to behave when appropriate.

Anyway, broadly I support her position, but a couple of the other team members find it very hard to accept her lecturing them on moral issues when she's very open that she's been in a relationship with a married man for 10 years+.

They obviously need to behave professionally in a professional situation, but take exception to being told how to behave by someone who behaves badly, even though the situations are not connected. One man in particular finds it very hard because he has been the wronged party in that situation.

It's not really about who's right or wrong, but how we get this team to work together, whilst respecting her right not to be offended and everyone else's need to let off steam.

Any ideas at all?

“X is a safe space, that is the entire purpose of those sessions,, and a safe space means no judgements/criticisms being made so please don’t vocalise any as it is lowering morale.”

Yeah, please don’t challenge off colour jokes, or non-PC language - you’re lowering morale. Really? Don’t challenge the judgemental language of others because it lowers morale?

SO DEAL WITH IT!
You're the team leader, why are you allowing it to happen?

Stop the "but she's having an affair" shite by these people - it's irrelevant and is a false comparison by people looking to deflect from their own behaviour. And you're enabling this.

If the female colleague puts in a complaint about it, you'll be going down with them as she's being silenced in the workplace about an out of work relationship. Which

• Which could be seen as bullying.

She's not the "newer" colleague, I am FWIW and I have given examples.

I am the one of two people who've managed to stay neutral because I don't use the language, but understand others' reasons for doing so.

I also understand why the others object to being judged by someone doing what she's doing. I take the position that I suspect she's being manipulated by him to some extent (it is actually a very long very sad story) but people who have been victims of adulterous partners find it harder to take that view.

I also think some of her stress reaction to these situations is as a result of her very stressful personal life, so you can say it's nothing to do with colleagues, but it does affect us.

@SilverHairedCat

SO DEAL WITH IT! You're the team leader, why are you allowing it to happen?

Stop the "but she's having an affair" shite by these people - it's irrelevant and is a false comparison by people looking to deflect from their own behaviour. And you're enabling this.

If the female colleague puts in a complaint about it, you'll be going down with them as she's being silenced in the workplace about an out of work relationship. Which

I'm not the team leader. The team leader is actually one of the people who struggles with her behaviour having been on the other side of it.

It might be nice if you read my posts before shouting at me

@Mediocrates

Peer supervision is perfectly valid, but also a professional situation. How would your governing body respond to the language and terms used in the meeting? Language matters, and when you work with vulnerable people this is doubly so. How would the people who are supported but your service feel if they heard these words and terms used?

In my experience (and obviously I don't know the exact context of what you do), people who use inappropriate language in professional-only settings but not in front of others are people who actually see no wrong in their words, and only adapt their language in front of others to "toe the line". It often reflects their values

I agree with this, especially the second paragraph.

I've worked in two mental health services. I was in a non-clinical role but was in many debriefs with clinicians. I never heard anyone describe a service user as "going nuts" because, as compassionate professionals, they didn't look at someone in crisis and think "well she's nuts."

I understand why your colleague is uncomfortable. I wouldn't want to work in a service where professionals only used "PC words" when in front of service users. It's the words people use when they feel they won't get in trouble that reflect their true values.

So if you hold similar views to her about the use of inappropriate language, why is she left to challenge it alone?

@Jellycatspyjamas

So if you hold similar views to her about the use of inappropriate language, why is she left to challenge it alone?

I don't share her views on what's appropriate for others in this situation. I wouldn't say it myself, but I'm not offended by someone telling a traumatic story and saying "...and then he went nuts and started throwing chairs.." before then going on to talk compassionately about how we can support him.

I’d start by making those 30 mins before the meeting a thing and call it peer to peer supervision.
I’d invite those who are happy with the ‘banter’ and let the one who isn’t comfortable with it out if it.
Then I would do another half an hour peer to peer supervision at the end with the person(s?) uncomfortable with the banter.

It very much sounds like people are offloading like other professions do (I’m thinking paramedics, firefighters etc…). It’s harsh, very dark humour, probably not understandable by those who are not in it. But that’s how they deal with it.
I’m struggling to have an issue with it.
But I also think it’s ok if that doesn’t sit well with her and she shouldn’t have to sit through it. She should also get her own support/way to offload.

What is not here nor there is the fact she is the OW and has been so for the last 10 years.

Hmmm I agree with others saying that as she is at work and she isn't judging them for their private lives, but on their (lack of) professionalism at work, they can't really respond to her criticisms with "well you're the OW in an affair so nerr".

But, I do know why it's annoying. I know a woman who has been a real shit. She isn't an OW, but she's the new partner of a recently divorced man and they've deliberately made his ex's life harder because he hates her so his new partner does too. The thing is they only split up because he cheated with someone else, so he doesn't really have a leg to stand on. Anyway, this woman I know has neatly transitioned from vicious arsehole, deliberately sabotaging her new fellas house so that it's worth less and therefore exw will get less when he buys her out to suddenly being very sweet. Sickeningly so. Like crying at other people's pain when she barely knows them or crying about animal cruelty. It's fucking creepy . I can't stand her and think she may have something very wrong with her tbh

Ok, if the issue is along the lines of ‘he went nuts’ then she really needs to give her head a wobble tbh.

She's not the "newer" colleague, I am FWIW and I have given examples.

You said people in the meeting use non-PC language, used banter and off colour jokes, and gave “going nuts” or bonkers as examples. I suspect the language goes further than that and no examples of off colour jokes.

While I wouldn’t get my knickers in a twist about the examples you gave, it’s not the first time I’ve had to challenge colleagues about their use of language or humour which basically amounts to disrespect. Every single thing doesn’t need to be challenged every time but I bet some of her challenges are spot on. Unfortunately she’s handily given the group an excuse to dismiss her concerns, but that doesn’t make her concerns less valid.

I’d be reflecting on the overall tone of conversation at these meetings and the use of inappropriate humour and language - if you honestly think there’s nothing wrong, leave it alone and let her get on with it.

However, in our weekly leadership meetings there is a certain amount of offloading and some inappropriate jokes, banter, gossip. Very much in the room, everyone understands it's our safe space

OP, you have contradicted yourself in your posts. Using incorrect terms such as 'nuts' is one thing but that's not what you said in your OP. I think you should all behave professionally at work. It's not difficult to not use inappropriate jokes, banter or gossip. I can unwind and have fun with colleagues without doing those things.

I think the fact that your colleague is an OW is irrelevant.

Go on then, tell me a joke that isn't in some way derogatory or at the expense of someone else.

@QuestionsorComments

These are people who regularly get sworn at spat at punched and kicked, often have to remove weapons, but they're never allowed to make a slightly derogatory remark about any of it?

No, no they are not. How do I know. Well I'm a nurse who is regularly assaulted, spat at, verbally abused.

I pick myself up. I discuss with other nurses or nursing assistants on the unit and then I move on.

I have never used derogatory terms when recounting that time I got punched on the left boob, hair grabbed. A chair thrown at me....

I offload professionally and move on. As a team leader I would expect you to lay down professional boundaries and discuss the appropriate use of language.

As for the ow colleague. Once you address the behaviour of the whole team you remind her that her relationship is not for discussion within the office or work environment.

Watch different comedians- many tell the jokes at their own expense

You'd never describe the chair thrower as mad, or stupid? That's what we're talking about not racist or sexist language.

@anothersmahedmug

Watch different comedians- many tell the jokes at their own expense

Yes, using these "banned" terms. Mad, OCD, twitchy...

Op do you think that the answer is some kind of balance ?

So one person is being too sensitive and the others too insensitive?

It's not that no one calls them out, they use them for effect because we all know they shouldn't and wouldn't in any other situation

So they damned well shouldn't here either

@QuestionsorComments

You'd never describe the chair thrower as mad, or stupid? That's what we're talking about not racist or sexist language.

Absolutely not. I genuinely have never. What I do is attempt to understand why their behaviour is the way it is. This helps me process that the chair that nearly struck my square in the face and was only stopped by a colleague who had an amazing reaction was not personal.

It wasn't aimed at me specifically because I just provided service. I'm there to do a job.

I think about the way that person has lived that might impact how they behave. What are their determinants.

That life is hard and they might not have insight into their behaviour. If I was on your team I'd be arranging training, some sessions on professional skills and a new team leader who can effectively manage.

I wasn't always a nurse. I used to work for benefits agency and I do have a broader experience.

Of course she has no right to make moral judgements. How dare she?

If it was about her feeling uncomfortable on a personal level (ie not offense taking on behalf of others), it would be different. But to make moral judgements? Let her set her own house in order first.

I think if I was on the receiving end of a chair throwing incident i might use some choice language and consider myself a victim