Meet the Other Phone. Protection built in.

Meet the Other Phone.
Protection built in.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Chat

Join the discussion and chat with other Mumsnetters about everyday life, relationships and parenting.

Paedophile hunters

29 replies

vintage21 · 03/01/2022 18:30

this may be quite emotive and long but as a survivor of 3 separate people abusing me before age of 10 and being groomed at 15 then raped I was interested to read of Paedophile hunters. The fact I was subjected to so much long before the internet makes me wonder how bad things really are these days. Gone are the days when it is simply a case of keeping a family computer in view of the family with mobile phones having access to the internet it must be a nightmare keeping an eye on what children are now accessing though this is not an excuse for Paedophile activity children should be able to use the internet without fear or danger.
I realise that the Police resources are very stretched and they simply don't have the time or men to track down these Paedophiles as much as needs to be probably.
From what I could understand these groups joined chat rooms forums etc posing as underage children and encourage Paedophiles to chat to them stating their age waiting to see if they suggested meetings, sending pornographic images or films etc. if possible they would arrange a meet turning up as the group or if no meeting then they would often go to the Paedophiles home. In theory, this sounded plausible if this meant immediately ringing the Police so a proper investigation into the person activity online could be conducted.
I watched some of these stings as they call them on YouTube. I found a lot of the groups were nothing more than bullies harassing the people in question by bombarding them with copies of what they had said to the child or rather a decoy; intimidating them and really treating them like dirt. yes they had allegedly committed a crime which is very wrong but a lot of these people were mentally ill, elderly or of very low intelligence which is not an excuse but it has been shown this kind of behaviour has led to suicide. I know lots will wonder why I as a victim don't think oh good one less to deal with but to me, a lot of these groups and individuals just use this as an excuse to attack someone I must admit I do think which I never think I would that these groups should either be stopped or more closely supervised

OP posts:
lastqueenofscotland · 03/01/2022 18:33

My biggest issue with these groups is by plastering what they do on Facebook they can make a trial impossible. Therefore meaning any prosecution of these people is unsafe.
The police are stretched but they don’t risk having trials thrown out on legal technicalities like these groups do

Returnoftheowl · 03/01/2022 18:35

@lastqueenofscotland

My biggest issue with these groups is by plastering what they do on Facebook they can make a trial impossible. Therefore meaning any prosecution of these people is unsafe. The police are stretched but they don’t risk having trials thrown out on legal technicalities like these groups do
I agree with this. These groups screw up any chance of a prosecution, which essentially lets the offender escape any justice.
Jessicabrassica · 03/01/2022 21:50

Plus they don't always get it right.

www.google.com/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/uk/2000/aug/30/childprotection.society

AsYouWishButtercup · 04/01/2022 00:28

I agree with you OP, and these groups are often denounced by police too who must have a nightmare with them.

I don’t believe in vigilante justice in any way for any crime though.

OkPedro · 04/01/2022 00:33

There is a particular group who (I now can't remember the name, typical 😬) are very careful and don't show faces or give details until the person has actually made contact with the "child" I don't really have an issue with it. I was SA as a child and think if it gets rid of a fraction of these sickos then good

NoNotMeNoSiree · 04/01/2022 02:19

My biggest issue with these groups is by plastering what they do on Facebook they can make a trial impossible.
This it renders a proper / fair trial impossible.
Then you've got the social media pitch fork mentality all riled up, and sometimes not even the right person!
The paediatrician who was hounded by rabid imbeciles springs to mind

GeodesicDome · 04/01/2022 02:30

Paedophile hunters tend to be paedophiles, ime.

PinniGig · 04/01/2022 03:31

One of my oldest and closest friends is a clinical psychologist and specialist therapist now based in Canada but spent two or three years working in Cat A prisons and forensic mental health units predominantly with violent sex offenders which formed part of research and case studies she used to support an application to have a two year funded project that would work with volunteers either for group, individual therapy and counselling or inpatient treatment of child sex offenders.

There was nowhere in the UK that offered any form of treatment, facility or service that could refer people to other therapy or treatment options be it chemical castration or development of early intervention.

She realised during the time spent with violent offenders how nearly all spoke of their desperation to try and stop themselves having the initial urges, feelings and desires towards children which they knew were wrong, they knew and desperately didn't want to do and over time as they tried to starve and get rid of their urges, it inevitably worsened and many became violent (sexually) towards women in the hope that would at least serve as a macabre substitute to young children. They knew that it was wrong to do what they did to women also but felt it the lesser of two evils and that's how and why many of the world's most dangerous, violent and prolific offenders will never be released i.e. they raped and abused all ages, genders – even resorted to bestiality and necrophilia.

I'm not in that area of work but helped her to get all her research, case studies and paperwork together for submitting for funding of what she intended to be a two year clinical trial that would offer a walk in and inpatient therapy, treatment and access to services for people with sexual urges or prior offences and convictions.

The panel acknowledged the level of time, effort, research and agreed she made a very strong argument and compelling case but they turned her down based on the fact that society was not ready to accept, acknowledge or agree that taxpayers money should be spent helping paedophiles.

Her counterargument was that the clinic itself would not be a visible, listed or otherwise known NHS and all patients she aimed to work with would be there voluntarily because of the overwhelming number of prisoners with whom she'd spent several years - most of whom said they had nowhere to go, nobody to turn to or ask for help getting rid of their feelings when they first started. I think all but just a small handful said they would have gladly opted for chemical castration had it been an option or there been a means of just getting to speak with someone about it.

She was seeking to try and address the issue as an early intervention therefore just providing a service and a place for people to go for help that will ultimately allow them to offer treatment be it surgery, medication, counselling or intensive specialist therapy and in doing so, save many young children from being abused which she considered would be a very large number given how there was no objection and indeed a welcome of options that might avoid it.

The building she identified as being ideal was formerly an elderly care home that had stood empty since it closed a couple of years earlier. Word got around about potential plans for it use and it was set on fire and the whole thing burned down with locals outraged at the idea anyone wanted to bring paedophiles into their towns and near their children and schools.

There's still nowhere (not that I'm aware of anywhere but could be wrong - hope I am tbh) that has voluntary inpatient treatment, counselling or therapy and no services / nobody these people can go to for help.

What left her feeling the worst and most utterly defeated was the acknowledgement and recognition that it was something that did need to be adequately researched and clinical trials looked into for early intervention and prevention – but it wasn't allowed because society would be too upset, repulsed, outraged and simply wouldn't stand for and accept that's what NHS was spending taxpayers money on.

It was like “Yeah we know you potentially have an idea that could save countless people from enduring horrific sexual abuse but what matters most right now is what Daily Mail readers think” Sad

It gutted her. She's now based permanent in Canada and a professor / head of her team in behavioural sciences but it still really stings how she almost managed to get somewhere and failed at the very last – feeling she failed everyone with it.

The vigilantes and paedophile hunters I understand mean well and maybe set out to do what they do with the best intention but they ultimately create an even bigger problem driving those that desperately do need to be helped, treated, monitored – even detained under MHA and they drive them so far away and underground it's impossible to know just where these people are, how many there are, what they're doing / how they operate etc.

It means more and more abuse and I don't for a second intend to seem harsh or unsympathetic to anyone who is the victim (far from it actually) but I do think society needs to understand the way to tackle and stop it is by admitting, acknowledging and finding a way to adequately treat and prevent it.

The irony is how often people describe their actions as sick / twisted / depraved – they are 100% spot on with that too. These people are sick and not mentally functioning as a normal person would. It needs to be seen as such, we can't just keep pretending it's something only evil people that enjoy and get nothing but pleasure out of it.

Most of those interviewed and whose case notes I remember siting through were all the more tragic because of how desperate they somee worst of the worst but they didn't know how to stop or what to do about it.

I dunno what the answer is, how long it will be before we're ready to start having that open dialogue and honest, raw and horrible conversations in order to then move forward but vigilantes and paedophile hunters are not the solution. They really aren't they are the cause of even greater problems.

pinkypurple22 · 04/01/2022 16:52

The way to protect your children on the internet begins with the parents, as they are the people who buy them the phones, laptops, tablets, etc to access the internet in the first place. The next step is schooling. A lot more education concerning the online dangers of the internet/smart-phone generation needs to be addressed to a much greater level. It's never good enough to deal with those who offend, as lets face it, whether they are locked up in prison or given a suspended prison sentence, it's not like you can cure somebody's attraction to children. The best you can hope for, is that they remain a Minor Attracted Person (M.A.P) but not break the law in the future.

With paedophile hunters, who many (including the police and the media) refer to as Vigilantes, and I would have to agree with that description. During many many of their stings, they often say to the predators that if it was their child who they was grooming, meeting up with - and so on, then they wouldn't be filming them, and then go on about what they would actually do to them, which is violence. If they don't say that they would use violence, then instead, they deflect it to the make-believe-parents and say that most would use violence, so just those two examples proves what type of people are doing this and hunting and exposing predators. They like to project that to their Facebook and Youtube audience where most of these videos get live-streamed, so it is projecting onto the masses that it's best to not call the police, but attack them, and that does often happen.

We don't need a nation of vigilantes putting on video shows, and we don't need vigilantes trying to be policemen. We have professionals who have given their views of vigilantes, and it's a very dim view. They continue to maintain that they won't ever work with them, and the vigilante so called paedophile hunters do more harm than good. Many of who they sting have learning difficulties, and these types of people haven't a clue about that. Their only concern is to do sting after sting, and couldn't give a rats ass about the state of mind of these people. It's just another piece of meat really. I saw a sting a while back on an elderly man who had dementia, and poor eye-sight. They stung him anyway, lit him up, live streamed it and his property ended up with windows smashed, and his wife (who also was in a bad state of ill health) had to move out for her own safety. These vigilantes leave innocent families in a tragic state, as all they care about is the stings, and to hell with the consequences of the hatred they create, and what it can cause. The police really don't want no part in all of that destruction, which then they have to try and safeguard everyone. Clearing up the vigilantes mess, which they create very often.

Also another thing. The act of online grooming is not just focused to the United Kingdom. It is a problem worldwide. It is so easy for anyone living abroad to message any child in any country. They don't even have to say they are an adult either. They can copy what the vigilantes do, and set up fake child accounts and then groom your kids. Even lie about where they live. So someone from (lets say) Malta, could make up accounts pretending he lives here in Birmingham (for example) and then the vigilantes can't sting them, as naturally they not travelling to Malta lol, and there is no glory in that anyway, as the stings come before any child protection, and they couldn't protect children anyway, as 99.9% of the stings are concerning adults posing as children, so the child is a Fake.

Last, and probably the most important fact. Paedophiles who do get prison sentences for online grooming of fake children, will get housed in protection wings, and segregated from criminals in what is known as general population. Because even the inmates in GP hate them enough to attack them. But by putting so many paedophiles altogether, then that only makes matters worse, as many of them can join forces and share ideas on how to abuse children when they leave prison. Make friends of their own sick kind, and even form new paedophile rings. So is locking up more and more people (99.9% who are mostly men) into these prison wings going to spot the problem, or actually turn these men into more sophisticated paedophiles? I think the latter. And even police at the more senior level have said that you can't arrest your way out of this problem.

Simonjt · 04/01/2022 19:04

I realise that the Police resources are very stretched and they simply don't have the time or men to track down these Paedophiles as much as needs to be probably.

Never heard of female police officers?

Pugdogmom · 04/01/2022 19:45

I used to think it was a good idea, until I watched a "sting" online, and 2 days later the guy killed himself. We will never know if he was actually guilty or not.

ShakeMaTail · 04/01/2022 19:47

They give me the heebie jeebies tbh. Too obsessed. They just come across as a bunch of wrong'uns.

Outlyingtrout · 04/01/2022 19:52

@Simonjt

I realise that the Police resources are very stretched and they simply don't have the time or men to track down these Paedophiles as much as needs to be probably.

Never heard of female police officers?

Are you for real 🙄 I noticed this too but then I realised instantly that you'd have to be spectacularly crass and lacking in empathy to read a post from a CSA survivor about bringing paedophiles to justice, ignore everything they've said and pick them up on one wrong word. Hope it's made you feel good though.
Outlyingtrout · 04/01/2022 19:55

The best you can hope for, is that they remain a Minor Attracted Person (M.A.P) but not break the law in the future.

Can we please not contribute to the slippery slope towards recognising paedophilia as a sexual orientation by legitimising it with language like this? They are not "Minor Attracted Persons". They are paedophiles.

LondonQueen · 04/01/2022 20:02

@Outlyingtrout
That's just SimonJT, they are very insensitive with nearly all of their posts.

Ecosaurus · 04/01/2022 20:04

@PinniGig you say There was nowhere in the UK that offered any form of treatment, facility or service that could refer people to other therapy or treatment options be it chemical castration or development of early intervention.

This is exactly the type of work the Portman Clinic undertakes - and has done for quite some time; it was founded in the 1930s. I am surprised your friend would not have heard of it as it's well known about. I do not know if they offer chemical castration but they certainly offer early intervention services.

You then go on to say There's still nowhere (not that I'm aware of anywhere but could be wrong - hope I am tbh) that has voluntary inpatient treatment, counselling or therapy and no services / nobody these people can go to for help.

And yet again, whilst the Portman clinic does not offer inpatient treatment (which in most cases across mental health rarely offers a cure or adequate treatment due to it being so far removed from the real world), it does offer therapy and counselling.

Simonjt · 04/01/2022 20:08

@ShakeMaTail

They give me the heebie jeebies tbh. Too obsessed. They just come across as a bunch of wrong'uns.
Yep, they also know their actions prevent the CPS being able to take action, they’re knowinly allowing sex offenders to go free for a bit of cheap press.

They have zero interest in justice, just thuggery and a few minutes of fame.

You have to question why these people want to prevent sex offenders being charged.

Floogal · 04/01/2022 20:53

I've always wondered what the REAL motives are with these people. Then a few years ago I saw that episode of Luther, with the virtue signalling vigilante. And his boss saying vigilante mentality is dangerous as those who simply don't fit in (even if they've done nothing wrong) are likely to get targeted. Hit the nail on the head.
Think they want to look heroic. Also wondered whether some of them are sex offenders themselves , and project into other people to deflect

Ijsbear · 04/01/2022 21:03

This whole thing is truly appalling. I wish, wish, wish there was help available for the paedophiles who want help to avoid carrying out their urges. The damage they cause is so immense and lasts over so many generations that it is truly insane that when they ask for help early on they get nothing.

Treatment seems to be a difficult thing and with a high failure rate but it needs to be attempted. It really does.

PinniGig your post about your friend was very moving.

Worst of all - this shows how dangerous is can be to be even suspected of paedophilia www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2013/oct/29/vigilante-murder-paedophile-bristol-bijan-ebrahimi

No wonder no one with paedophilic urges dares ask for help. But help is what is needed, when someone is open to receiving it.

For unrepentant paedophiles, life should very much mean Life, until they die.

pinkypurple22 · 05/01/2022 17:32

@Outlyingtrout

The best you can hope for, is that they remain a Minor Attracted Person (M.A.P) but not break the law in the future.

Can we please not contribute to the slippery slope towards recognising paedophilia as a sexual orientation by legitimising it with language like this? They are not "Minor Attracted Persons". They are paedophiles.

I didn't invent the term [ M.A.P ] it just exists. Google it.

Of course, M.A.P's, Paedophiles, Nonces, Predators, Online Groomers, and so on (or whatever people wish to refer to them as) - have tried to get recognition and added to the LGBT community as a sexual/visual preference. Actually, it's now extended to the LGBTQIA - as recognized and accepted forms of sexual/visual attraction. But whether acceptable or unacceptable in society, M.A.P's exist, and in gigantic volume throughout the world, and always has done since humans existed on planet Earth.

Outlyingtrout · 05/01/2022 18:49

@pinkypurple22 Yes I realise you didn’t invent it. It’s (unfortunately) an increasingly well known term. The fact remains that the language is used by those attempting to validate paedophilia as a sexual preference. It’s harmful. The more people who use this language, the more this attempt at validation is likely to gain traction. Language is key to normalisation.

They are not Minor Attracted People. They are paedophiles.

vintage21 · 06/01/2022 14:24

Sorry, when I said men I meant to say man-hours but as a long post, I missed my mistake.
I do wonder how people would be greeted if they went to their family GP to ask for help as they were having paedophilic thoughts? we all know the mental health service is desperate at the moment getting an apt can take 6 months or more in my area. I am probably wrong but I cannot think of any charity which deals with this issue solely. I guess MIND etc would help but how much knowledge do they have for helping this problem? come to that how much do register Drs have? What training do they have?
Taking all that into account any serious 'condition' either this one or people wishing to do other crimes like murder, necrophilia etc surely due to all these factors they would just go ahead and do what they feel the urge to do?

OP posts:
pinkypurple22 · 06/01/2022 17:24

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk guidelines.

Outlyingtrout · 06/01/2022 17:38

Basically a bisexuality, or trisexuality if they are attracted to men, women and children.

So you are one of the people who recognises paedophilia as a sexual preference and wants to normalise this. I won't engage further.

pinkypurple22 · 06/01/2022 17:57

@Outlyingtrout

Basically a bisexuality, or trisexuality if they are attracted to men, women and children.

So you are one of the people who recognises paedophilia as a sexual preference and wants to normalise this. I won't engage further.

A minor attracted person has a sexual and/or visual desire for children in whatever proportion that may be. It exists in society and always has done since humans existed on planet earth. You, Me (or anyone else) can hate it all we like, but it exists, and always shall exist. I wish it didn't exist. I wish it could be totally eradicated from society, but what I wish for or you wish for, or anyone else wishes for is basically wishing on a star. It ain't gonna happen.

I'm not bothered if you wish to further engage with me or not. But to be honest, unless people understand what is staring them slap-bang in the faces, then they must surely be living in cloud-nine.

I never want to see the letter M or P being added to the LGBTQIA either, as that would be encouraging it. But it exists, whether people want it or not, and there is no getting away from it, and another thing. The stigma is just so huge in society, which is why so many offending paedophiles won't dare even asking for help, so the problem really only gets worse, as in many cases, other paedophiles search out other paedophiles to make friends with, and prisons VP wings and Horizon projects certainly do their job of increasing that problem. But that's the crooked system for you, and the Vigilantes certainly aid in that...and more... and who says that many of them ain't paedophiles themselves, including their decoys who all portray themselves as whiter-than-white. The apple doesn't fall that far from the tree you know...

Swipe left for the next trending thread