Can teachers even do anything about this? Poor DD being bullied by exclusion

[LadyCleathStuart]

My poor DD is 5. A few weeks ago she was having an issue with some girls calling her names. We phoned the school, they spoke to DD and the girls, all good or so we thought.

Now all of the girls (only 5 in her class including her) seem to have turned against her. She says none of them speak to her at all throughout the whole day, the get up and move away if she sits with them at lunch etc.

I am going to phone again tomorrow but in all honesty is there anything they can actually do? They can't make people be her friend can they. I am devastated for her and I don't know how to fix it.

Thank you all, I have an appointment to speak to the teacher later today and I feel a bit more clued up about what to ask after this thread.

[quote DottyHarmer]@makelovenotpetrol - I tend to disagree; I think there are some inherently “nasty” children. You know those unpleasant people who are swift to make a subtlety unkind remark, to make you feel a bit small, to leave you feeling awkward and unsure of yourself? Well, they were there in that primary school class at 5 years old, doing the exact same thing.

I am quite sure I have never made a mean comment out of nowhere to someone, yet there are those who seem to have an inbuilt ability to pick on insecurities, even for having the “wrong” pencil case.

If I were OP I would speak to teacher, stressing how unhappy the dd is. You can’t alter the personality of the ringleader, but the others could be chastened by a stiff talk about kindness.[/quote]
You have quite a nasty opinion of children then!

OP, I can't stress enough how important it is that the teacher interviews the other girls separately from each other.

DDs teachers didn't do that, meaning the girls in the grasp of the RL & not speaking up fir fear of being the next target, can't speak up. It took 6 months of implications that DD was somehow at fault as they were so young & DD against all of them, before they interviewed them separately & 2 of the girls then agreed DD was telling the truth. DD was targeted as she refused to join in bitching & bullying others. The sense of power this gave the RL created real bd dynamics that meant this girl felt empowered & carried on all through school & later social media ... thankfully DD saw her for "the saddo" that she was & all of the others have apologised to DD over the years.

The PP saying some are just not nice people, is spot on. They need careful handling by school & parents to stamp the behaviour out, which sadly rarely happens

The short answer is that either the school must sort it out - which brilliant teachers can do quite easily at this age with eg changes to seating arrangements, putting groups into pairs for work, lesson content on bullying/ importance of kindness etc. But many schools won’t know how to do this / won’t bother.

Attempt to sort it through the school, but if it doesn’t work I would move her to the bigger school even though it’s inspections are worse. These girls are going to be her classmates for a long time. If she’s unlucky enough to have toxic classmates then the best thing is to walk away.

Anyone who says that it’s for the 5 year old to solve (eg ‘tell her to stand up for herself / be resilient’) is ridiculous. The child is five. If adults can’t solve it she certainly won’t be able to, all that approach will do is teach her not to bother asking adults for help.

@LadyCleathStuart

Thank you all, I have an appointment to speak to the teacher later today and I feel a bit more clued up about what to ask after this thread.

Please keep us updated, I'm so sad for your daughter reading this. I hope you and the teacher can work out how to deal with this.

@makelovenotpetrol

Some children are just nasty/wrong. These same children often (if not always) grow up into nasty adults.

I know the bullies from my primary school who as adults are still nasty pieces of work (small town).

Good idea re talking to the teacher.

A 2-form entry primary isn’t huge though, that is pretty standard. Some round here are 5-form entry (plus a nursery)-that is big!

Yes, at 5 school should be able to help but if it's really as extreme as DD is saying (rather than that's how she perceives it) you need to prepared to here that there are things she needs to change too.

I know I'll be accused of victim blaming, but it's not that and certainly not for a 5yo, but it will help her more to learn how to manage these situations than to think everyone esle needs to change (because she has no control over that).

An American resource - Red Grammer;

redgrammer.com/index.php/reds-cds-dvd-and-books.html

The Circle of Light and Teaching Peace CDs have useful classroom songs/resources.

@LadyCleathStuart

Thank you all, I have an appointment to speak to the teacher later today and I feel a bit more clued up about what to ask after this thread.

Well done op

Definitely take it further

[quote MrsBison]@makelovenotpetrol

Some children are just nasty/wrong. These same children often (if not always) grow up into nasty adults.

I know the bullies from my primary school who as adults are still nasty pieces of work (small town).[/quote]
No, they're not. I specialise in working with children with the most complex needs, and over so many years of work I have never met a child no matter how challenging who is inherently nasty. Or, if they do display "nasty" behaviour it is learned, or developed as a reaction to external events.

The children you're thinking of are displaying nasty traits yes, and this may continue into adulthood but they were not "born nasty" . They've learned it, from not so very nice adults or any number of other influences or events. No one, but no one is just nasty. And it's a nasty thought to suggest that they are!!

i think i would look at a school with greater class numbers, 5 girls to be friends with (because lets face it girls and boys tend to play with their same sex) is way too small a pool.

I’m a TA. We’d definitely be cracking down on that behaviour. It is indeed a form of bullying. Haven’t the staff noticed it happening?

@makelovenotpetrol I think if psychopathy is inheritable then a nasty streak a mile wide probably can be too. I don't think we can just rule it out and say it's all nurture and no nature anyway.

God it's hard. I had 3 DDs (now grown up) and have seen this so often. AS they get older it truly does become sheer bitchery. I could see that the perpetrators were really unconfident and boosted themselves by this sort of behaviour.

The school really must be told - they can tinker around with seating plans, find opportunities to include your DD in different combinations of children for activities etc. They will be used to dealing with this - it happens with little girls a lot!

@makelovenotpetrol you are just wrong. As Tal45 says, if you can inherit one personality trait, then you can another. In all my years I have met few “nasty” children, but they have definitely existed. Ones who are crafty or sneery even when very small. Like the child who told dd at play school that “Ellie didn’t want to invite you to her party. Her mummy made her.” (I overheard this.) Who says this at 3 years old? Same child said similar mean comments.

When I was at school there were the girls who would look at you sideways, or leave you out, or snigger and then say, “Oh, it’s nothing!” This way of thinking I believe - nay, know - is inbuilt.

I think in some cases it’s possibly part of the “jealousy” gene. Some people really do feel bitterness and jealousy more than others - for no good reason.

[quote DottyHarmer]@makelovenotpetrol you are just wrong. As Tal45 says, if you can inherit one personality trait, then you can another. In all my years I have met few “nasty” children, but they have definitely existed. Ones who are crafty or sneery even when very small. Like the child who told dd at play school that “Ellie didn’t want to invite you to her party. Her mummy made her.” (I overheard this.) Who says this at 3 years old? Same child said similar mean comments.

When I was at school there were the girls who would look at you sideways, or leave you out, or snigger and then say, “Oh, it’s nothing!” This way of thinking I believe - nay, know - is inbuilt.

I think in some cases it’s possibly part of the “jealousy” gene. Some people really do feel bitterness and jealousy more than others - for no good reason.[/quote]
Ok.

But what makes you so sure you're right. I think you're wrong. You telling me I'm wrong won't make me just bow to your opinion. Sorry.

I don't think it's so much a matter of inherent nastiness
It's more that some parents are tools and pass it on to their kids.

So maybe intervention can work but it's up against a lot.

as a teacher, I have come across mean kids.

But I think it is mostly taught/caught form environment and parents. Let's just say that I ahve never had a bully/mean kid where I met the parents and thought Wow, they are nice, what happened to the kid?

and within the classroom, especially with young children, you can make it very clear which sort of behaviour is permitted, and which behaviour gets you attention from the teacher. You can re-teach.

For some children, sadly, they don't realise that these are life skills, and as soon as they move on to another context they will revert to the nasty behaviour. But some children do get it and learn that in social contexts, this is not permitted behaviour.

I'd be careful the school doesn't try blaming your DD by turning it round onto her, suggesting it's her behaviour the others are trying to avoid. We had this in primary school. DD had been friends with one particular girl in year 4 but by year 6 it had turned toxic and the former friend had systematically turned all DD's other friends against her and she was being ignored by all the girls. The teacher told us it was all DD's fault (it wasn't, she was so stressed by it all that she began to refuse to go to school, was in tears every day and shaking, begging not to go). The school did nothing, just stood by and let it escalate, all the while saying it was DD's fault . One friend tried to stand by her but couldn't withstand the pressure from the bully and had to back off. DD was left with no friends, and unsupported by the school. Even the bully's mother piled in with a vicious verbal attack on me, which the headteacher washed her hands of, just saying that the parents were difficult and she didn't want to cross them. We had no choice but to move DD away from that school before things got even worse.

Just a quick update - spoke to the teacher who said she was aware that there was a particular 'character' among the girls and thought that DD was more trying to avoid her than being left out so to speak so the school are going to keep a close eye to get to the bottom of it and will move DD seats in class away from the instigator and next to some of the other girls and will do group work and some other 'friendship' type strategies and we will review in a week.

DD already seemed happier yesterday so fingers crossed. The other school will remain an option and we will see where we are come the new year.

That is very good to hear. Sometimes it just takes a few small tweaks to change the balance a bit.

It sounds as though they do know what's going on.

I would move her as soon as possible. I don’t see the appeal in the next 7 years with the same 4 nasty little girls.

In view of how young these girls are this is pretty bad. I expect there is a forceful ringleader in this bullying. I would seriously consider changing schools. Very concerning indeed that this is happening with five year olds.

That's brilliant news. So glad to hear the teacher is on the case. I bet it'll be sorted in no time.