Page 2 | Can teachers even do anything about this? Poor DD being bullied by exclusion

LadyCleathStuart · 2021-11-29T22:07:31+00:00

My poor DD is 5. A few weeks ago she was having an issue with some girls calling her names. We phoned the school, they spoke to DD and the girls, all good or so we thought. Now all of the girls (only 5 in her class including her) seem to have turned against her. She says none of them speak to her at all throughout the whole day, the get up and move away if she sits with them at lunch etc. I am going to phone again tomorrow but in all honesty is there anything they can actually do? They can't make people be her friend can they. I am devastated for her and I don't know how to fix it.

Original poster

LadyCleathStuart · 29/11/2021 22:48

It's a small village catholic school in Scotland, there is a larger non-denominational school close by that she could move to but that is huge hence why we chose the smaller school with small class sizes.

When my son started the class was mostly girls! He has thrived at the school but DD has hit issues straight away.

OP posts:

tootiredtospeak · 29/11/2021 22:48

At 5 jesus yes they can make them they should be monitored closely at their age it should be noticable this is happening. I would ask to go in speak to the head ask them to speak to the other parents. My DD turns 5 soon and has just started reception. I would be mortified if she did this she is so little and innocent and I am sure if I spoke to her and told her how sad she was making another little girl she wouldn't do it.

SM33 · 29/11/2021 22:49

So sorry to hear your daughter is experiencing this, it’s so heartbreaking. Its call relational aggression and is most definitely bullying. We found the following books very helpful: The friendship Maze by Tanith Carey, No more Mean Girls by Katie Hurley, Bully proof kids by Stella O’Malley and Little Girls can be mean by Michelle Anthony. And one for you to read with your daughter My Secret Bully by Trudy Ludwig.
From our experience make sure you ask the school for a clear action plan. Make sure this is documented. We made the mistake of thinking that because we were having meetings they would actually do something- they didn’t, and it went on for a year. For us the main change was a different teacher who made sure that my daughter was included.
The other thing I have learnt is never, ever speak to the parents!!! It won’t help and In my experience has made things worse.

Original poster

LadyCleathStuart · 29/11/2021 22:51

Thanks all.

I don't think it is anything to do with how she plays, she isn't a bossy boots, she is quite kind but does take everything to heart.

They have a friendship bench but I don't think it helps.

I will look at those books thanks.

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SockFluffInTheBath · 29/11/2021 22:56

Not very Christian for a Catholic school

DD had similar in yr1, didn’t say anything until we asked why she took colouring books to school and she said it was so she had something to do at lunchtime because she wasn’t allowed to join in. In her case it was orchestrated by the ‘spirited’ daughter of the head of the pta. We spoke to her form tutor and she went ballistic (to us). Not quite sure what she did but she fixed it the very next day.

Quite possibly a larger school with more children to meet and make friends with could be the way forward. 5 will always be 2 pairs and a spare.

Oblahdeeoblahdoe · 29/11/2021 23:04

Deal with this issue straight away as through experience this can continue for many years. The other girls will be scared of queen bee so will do her bidding. If the teacher doesn't nip this in the bud then consider changing schools. Large schools aren't always bad

cheeseismydownfall · 29/11/2021 23:07

In all honesty I would be thinking hard about ripping off the band aid now and changing schools. That is a far, far too small cohort of girls for a healthy mix of friendship groups to form and be sustained through several years. If it is bad now, it will in all likelihood get progressively worse as they get older. Your poor DD.

BluebellsGreenbells · 29/11/2021 23:08

A larger school May suit your DD better, don’t rule it out, but do speak to the teacher, invite a couple of the girls for tea.

Do you know why it turned sour with this girl? Maybe look at that? More than likely it’s coming from the family.

TheOccupier · 29/11/2021 23:09

At 5 years old the school absolutely can do something about this and that should include things like controlling where they sit at lunch - at least with such a small school! Don't give up yet.

Original poster

LadyCleathStuart · 29/11/2021 23:20

Do you know why it turned sour with this girl? Maybe look at that? More than likely it’s coming from the family.

From what I can gather this girl tried to get DD involved in excluding some of the others but she wouldn't play ball with that and so she turned on her instead and the others fell in line. I feel that if it wasn't my DD it would be another girl and the others have realised that and fell in line.

A lot of it will come from the mother of that I have no doubt, she never has a good word to say about anyone, I spoke to her for DD's sake when they were friendly but there is no point in trying to solve it through that route.

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champagnetruffleshuffle · 29/11/2021 23:43

Both my dd and ds went to a small primary school. It appealed to me because it was small and I thought wouldn't be too over whelming for my 4 year olds. But if I had my time again I would send them to a larger school. Even though there were 7 girls in my dd's year there was so many issues with them all. This is common in every year group (especially from year 5 onwards) and there is no where for them to go friendship-wise when it goes pear shaped. My son was fine, but other boys in his class had lots of problems. If the larger school is an option I would really recommend moving her.

Howshouldibehave · 30/11/2021 07:06

@LadyCleathStuart

It's a small village catholic school in Scotland, there is a larger non-denominational school close by that she could move to but that is huge hence why we chose the smaller school with small class sizes.

When my son started the class was mostly girls! He has thrived at the school but DD has hit issues straight away.

Did you answer how many were in the class, @LadyCleathStuart?

How many are in the larger school?

makelovenotpetrol · 30/11/2021 07:19

At 5 it can and should be dealt with. No one is "nasty" at age 5 - as much as the other girls definitely are being nasty. By which I mean it's not the other girls who are horrible children, it's horrible behaviour, which is the duty of their teacher to address. 5 year olds don't know alwsys how to play nicely and if this is their default then the teacher does absolutely need to step in and help them to unlearn the nasty things and learn to be good friends. It is part of the curriculum, even without it being necessary in this situation.

Definitely speak to the teacher again and be your daughters advocate that it MUST be sorted. You could take her out but what does that teach her ...all that says is when you're upset you run away from the problem... Better to fight out getting it sorted I think, but absolutely heart breaking for you to watch, I'm so sorry

Cinabunn · 30/11/2021 07:37

@LadyCleathStuart

Do you know why it turned sour with this girl? Maybe look at that? More than likely it’s coming from the family.

From what I can gather this girl tried to get DD involved in excluding some of the others but she wouldn't play ball with that and so she turned on her instead and the others fell in line. I feel that if it wasn't my DD it would be another girl and the others have realised that and fell in line.

A lot of it will come from the mother of that I have no doubt, she never has a good word to say about anyone, I spoke to her for DD's sake when they were friendly but there is no point in trying to solve it through that route.

Oh god,

I was excluded like this at about 13!!!!
Except I was the first choice for exclusion so I didn't have to stand against queen bee in the same way.

Your daughter is very brave to not play ball.

It's so hard to know what to do for the best but personally with the bully personality holding sway I would be tempted to move your daughter

I had years of it from about 11-17 and it was awful.

EscapeTheCastle · 30/11/2021 10:20

Sounds like that kid is not going to change personality any time soon so start to look into moving schools.

I wouldn't want to be stuck with the same 4 friends for the next 7 years!

Original poster

LadyCleathStuart · 30/11/2021 10:22

Sorry there are 15 in the class. I din't know about wider school numbers, my DS has a bigger class in p4.

The other school is huge and has 2 full P1 classes of 30 or so children. My nephew went to it and it wasnt a good school, when we were debating what school to send my eldest to it had failed numerous inpections and had been told to improve , that is why we chose the smaller school. Although we are a Catholic family technically we don't regularly attend mass etc. so it wasn't the faith aspect of the school that appealed to us, just its size and the fact it had passed its inpections!

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ChocolateDeficitDisorder · 30/11/2021 10:26

I wouldn't inflict that girl on your daughter for the next 7 years. There was a bully in my class and her presence overshadowed the good bits in my memory.

Move her to other school where there a more children and her friendships can be more fluid and natural. There were still be bullies, but their power is diluted.

Comedycook · 30/11/2021 10:33

My DD is in a three form entry school and has thirty kids in her class but it's very boy heavy...only 9 girls. This has been a huge problem. There's such a small pool of potential friends for her. I'd be very concerned about there only being 5 girls in the class...I think it creates a lot of friendship issues.

Levithian · 30/11/2021 10:39

I feel for you OP. It's worth thinking seriously about moving her to the bigger school. My DC went to a small village school with great OFSTED results. It was lovely in many ways, but he didn't fit in with the boys in his class- they were quite burly, rugby mad, farm boys who would play wrestling at break time whilst my DC wanted to play house or tag or whatever.
I was forced to send him to a far bigger school with quite bad OFSTED results, and I really, REALLY didn't want to (forced by breakdown of marriage.) He was terrified of the class size/noise for about a week, but after that he just soared. There were so many different kinds of children, so he could find people more like him. He learned so much socially at his new school, and the fact that it's a big school means that there's less of that preferential treatment of the kids of the PTA- the school don't have the time for that.

Notbornwithit · 30/11/2021 10:42

Sounds a bit unusual for 5 year olds tbh. The school definitely should be intervening at this age

steppemum · 30/11/2021 11:22

as a teacher, with 5 year olds, you can easily change the dynamic.

It is a mixture of speaking to the ringleader, by chatting about kindness and feelings and what it is like to be left out. (non specifically, so not in relation to your dd) and then saying - you knwo I have noticed that you are leader, you are good at getting the other girls together to play, I wonder if you could be good at being kind too?

By rewarding kindness and friendship in class - this is so easy to do. Whenever class is gathered on carpet, lined up at the door etc, you just say - do you know this morning I saw X sharing the game so nicely with Y. Or, I saw Z being friendly to someone that was on their own. The kids start falling oevr themselves to get that praise.

By reading stories around friendships, falling out and making up.

It is possible to change and atmosphere, if they want to

FoggySpecs · 30/11/2021 11:25

My DD had a similar issue but the teacher makes them do stuff in pairs and mixes up the pairs to stop this happening.

BocolateChiscuits · 30/11/2021 11:28

They're still only little, so a lot can be done to change their behaviour. And the teacher just has 15 kids to worry about. I would setup a meeting to talk to the teacher about it.

My son's school have recently had an anti-bullying week, where all the classes discussed bullying and did various role-playing things etc. He's only 5 too. At that age, I should imagine a serious talk with the teacher about how excluding people makes them feel, and why it is mean and wrong, could really have an impact. So push for that.

The good news is, it sounds like she used to get on with the queen bee - so they should be able to play together happily in the future once this stuff is all sorted out.

If they're reluctant to act, mention that you would consider moving schools over this. It's likely they're funded per pupil, and with such small class sizes, they might be feeling a pressure to drop a teacher, and merge a couple of year groups, and so would rather not see a child leave.

I think your instincts are right to leave the parents out of it. Just adds a whole new layer of complications, especially if they're not that nice themselves.

RockinHorseShit · 30/11/2021 11:34

This is known as 'social bullying" & is very damaging. The school can & do need to step up.

From experience of this same low girl number class social bullying dynamics & a crap school, if the school don't step up & deal with the bullying behaviour firmly, there is nowhere to go with friendships for your DD. Mine moved on to playing with the boys, but by year 5, that brought its own problems & the bully girl ring leader was manipulating the boys to bully others too. I wish with hindsight I moved my DDs school much sooner than we did

DottyHarmer · 30/11/2021 11:40

@makelovenotpetrol - I tend to disagree; I think there are some inherently “nasty” children. You know those unpleasant people who are swift to make a subtlety unkind remark, to make you feel a bit small, to leave you feeling awkward and unsure of yourself? Well, they were there in that primary school class at 5 years old, doing the exact same thing.

I am quite sure I have never made a mean comment out of nowhere to someone, yet there are those who seem to have an inbuilt ability to pick on insecurities, even for having the “wrong” pencil case.

If I were OP I would speak to teacher, stressing how unhappy the dd is. You can’t alter the personality of the ringleader, but the others could be chastened by a stiff talk about kindness.