School having different uniform/behaviour standards depending on child's socio economic background

[BarbaraPappa]

Sorry for the wanky title but I didn't know how to word it! I've name changed as have discussed this with several other people.

Our catchment secondary school has a catchment area which is basically half a very very deprived area and half a few villages which, whilst not affluent, are far more affluent than the deprived area. We live in one of the villages but aren't well off and have an average income, home etc. The school had an Ofsted inspection fairly recently and got a 'Requires improvement', and has been inadequate in the past several times. Our area only has two secondary schools; the other is much better performing but is oversubscribed even within its own catchment area, and so we had no choice really but to use the catchment school. We have DS, who is in year 8 and is aged 13, and DD who went to the school but is now at a separate sixth form.

Basically, I feel that the school is very harsh, and strict in terms of behaviour and uniform for the kids that aren't from the deprived area, and there is never any leeway at all for them. Whilst the other kids get away with a lot more in terms of everything.

For example, the kids that are not from the deprived area get hounded about attendance. If their attendance drops below 98% they get hauled into their year head's office about it. Whilst both my children have told me that there are many children from the deprived area that rarely attend school, and when they do attend they are treated like long-lost war heroes by the staff and praised repeatedly. One girl who was in DD's year even got rewarded with a Dominos pizza sometimes on the days she actually decided to grace the school with her presence.

Regarding behaviour, they are so strict with children that the deem from the more affluent area. My son recently got given two days in school isolation for something which I consider to be fairly minor (I have no objection at all to him doing isolation if the discipline was fair), yet both my children repeatedly tell/told me about kids from the less affluent area that behave badly and get no sanction. On the day my son committed his misdemeanour a girl in his form called their year head a 'fucking whore' and was not faced with isolation or exclusion. A boy in his class recently sprained a teachers wrist on purpose, but again was merrily back in the class and school the next day. The teachers seem to see the less affluent naughty kids as 'lovable rogues' and yet govern the other kids like some military operation. There is also another boy in my DS's class that gets angry regularly and even pushed a table over recently, but again, no sanction and the teacher just ignored it. If your child has any problems with any of the children from the less affluent area then the school will not sort it and will look for ways to blame your child.

Lastly, uniform! The school are so strict on uniform for one half of the school, yet the others get away with anything and everything! I sometimes drop my son off at school and have seen children going in wearing jeans, trainers, no tie, no blazer, and the teachers do not say a word. My daughter was once sent home from school at the gate because he (school, from the school supplier!!) trousers were deemed too short! Yet they happily let other breaches of uniform slide. The boy in my son's class that pushed the table never wears a school jumper and instead wears a Nike one, with no sanctions. My son once had his tie stolen when they had to take them off for PE, and his head of year phoned me and said he had to have a detention even though it was stolen as 'they can't be seen to let someone not have a tie'. When I queried the blatant lack of uniform from other children she said 'you need to understand that people have different financial circumstances and can afford different things'. So clearly the message is ; if the school think you can afford to buy proper uniform, then your child gets punished for not having it. If you are very poor, your kid can wear anything and everything.

I am getting so pissed off with the general unfairness of it; I'm happy for rules, and uniform and all the stuff that goes with it, but how is it fair to enforce it to half the school and not to others? I'm thinking of making a complaint to the school governors but I don't know if this would achieve any change at all?

Goodness me, OP, your kids really do feel sorry for themselves, don't they?

U don't get it

@PasstheBucket89

Some of these posts are overly harsh ive experienced similar before

not in terms of poor/deprived but quiet, placid children being held to much higher standards and also forgotten by the wayside in comparison to much more disruptive children. it IS frustrating and IT DOES teach some children that life is about shouting the loudest regardless of is youve anything of use to actually say, it's a difficult situation xx

Honestly the OP sounds very unpleasant which is why she's getting harsh response. but this is true. There's no need for ANY school to send people home for minor breaches of uniform. Or detention for not having a tie.

Pushing a table over is dangerous and could hurt other students. Spraining a teacher's wrist - an actual physical injury!

I can understand deprived students getting extra support but to impose grammar school like standards on what are deemed to be more 'affluent' people and let the 'deprived' students get away with everything creates massive segregation. It looks like it's just easier to not bother with them rather than strike a balance between being firm and supportive. And be completely harsh with everyone else.

Honestly this will just end in people who are not deprived (not affluent mind you!) leaving and the school will become worse than it already is.

@TractorAndHeadphones no-one is saying that all the kids from the poorer side of the catchment area are being treated differently. But OP's son is likely to notice the few that are. And the kids more in need of the nurturing element are likely to come from the more deprived area.

If you have a school refuser, or a kid without the support to get them in on time, fed and dressed smartly and ready to learn, what do you suggest a teacher does?
a) Put them off learning entirely by sending them home for a uniform infraction, so that they dont even try and so learn nothing? Or
b)do they encourage them, recognise the great feat they achieve one day by getting themselve into school, and overlook the fact that their unform is 'wrong' or dirty, in the hope that they will actually get to learn and see school as a safe place.

I'd say that the last thing the school is doing is 'not bothering with them'. The fact that a few of these kids are "treated like long-lost war heroes by the staff and praised repeatedly"(in OP's words) shows that the teachers are very much bothering with them and doing all they can to get them to see school positively.

My kids left school a while ago and their school was like this and they recognised it was to help those kids who struggled with school generally. I would say it is a sign of a good school. My DS's friend's parent was in prison and the school really helped him get on through by rewards etc, as he wasn't living with his mum either. Life as we know is complex and as a child you often have no control over what happens in your life. School can be a great stabiliser for kids, celebrate you and your kids are fine and help them understand they are fine and the school is helping those who need extra help.

[quote saraclara]@TractorAndHeadphones no-one is saying that all the kids from the poorer side of the catchment area are being treated differently. But OP's son is likely to notice the few that are. And the kids more in need of the nurturing element are likely to come from the more deprived area.

If you have a school refuser, or a kid without the support to get them in on time, fed and dressed smartly and ready to learn, what do you suggest a teacher does?
a) Put them off learning entirely by sending them home for a uniform infraction, so that they dont even try and so learn nothing? Or
b)do they encourage them, recognise the great feat they achieve one day by getting themselve into school, and overlook the fact that their unform is 'wrong' or dirty, in the hope that they will actually get to learn and see school as a safe place.

I'd say that the last thing the school is doing is 'not bothering with them'. The fact that a few of these kids are "treated like long-lost war heroes by the staff and praised repeatedly"(in OP's words) shows that the teachers are very much bothering with them and doing all they can to get them to see school positively.[/quote]
You haven’t addressed any of my actual points , which are as follows:

• Uniform infractions : why should anybody be sent home at all? Not deprived, not affluent, why should anybody? The OP’s son’s tie stolen - why give him detention and say ‘we can’t have people be seen without ties’? Why not a warning?

• Incidents of a kid pushing table over , teacher spraining a wrist : what if other kids had been injured? This can’t be ignored - it’s dangerous.

I didn’t say anything about pizza, or letting kids dressed completely in their own clothes slide.

The school as a whole doesn’t seem to have a cohesive approach to managing the needs of its diverse student demographic. Individual teachers seem to be trying (like giving pizza to encourage students) but that’s not enough. The schools that succeed explain to people why they’re doing X, Y, and Z and in fact bridge the gap between the deprived students and others.

They don’t just impose punishments akin to being in a selective school on some people, while ignoring others. That’s showboating and is going to have the opposite of the desired effect.

Just put your child’s name down for the better school. Someone will leave and they can have a better, fairer education at the other school.
Education and social work is unfortunately staffed by well-meaning ineffectual lefties who don’t understand that children need consistency and boundaries.

As I say to my 9yo, who sees these things as you do op, which life would you rather have? Which is the harder one?

It's not a level playing field. I don't know your school but what some children are surviving through is shocking, I'm a teacher in a disadvantaged school.

Incidents of a kid pushing table over , teacher spraining a wrist : what if other kids had been injured? This can’t be ignored - it’s dangerous.

It's highly unlikely that this was ignored. OP's DS probably didn't see how it was addressed, but if a child is acting out in the classroom in that way, unless you've got several hefty adults around to restrain the child, you don't do anything to make them even more aggressive. They could hurt more people.

If a child loses it and turns over a table, the role of the teacher or any adult in the room, is to defuse the situation in order to keep everyone safe.
What happened when the lesson was over, is something that the classmates will never know. And if the child comes from a violent household, the school is going to try to avoid exclusion and manage things in other ways. It's probably that they are looking for a PRU or similar for him, and for the next lesson he might be taken out to a nurture room so that he's not in the classroom.

These kids' classmates don't get to be told what's going on.

@Ionlydomassiveones

The problem with this seeming disparity (and yes it’s real) is that it leaves the normal/good kids totally demoralised and anxious about the draconian sanctions and the badly behaved kids swagger around like shit that can’t be touched.

My conscientious, anxious dd was often picked on by teachers for attendance when she was genuinely ill or ‘attitude’ if she didn’t snap to attention in a beat and yet her bullies were allowed to snooze on the desk, turn up and leave when they wanted etc. It completely turned my dd off education despite being bright and she was angry, depressed and traumatised for a long time after leaving with the sheer injustice of it. And injustice perpetrated by adults she was supposed to trust. She is now 21 and still feels betrayed and pissed off about it.

These kids might be under privileged but they are not unique in having problems, and not holding them to account for their behaviour and conduct does them, and society, no favours.

This You can say what you like about deprived students being given leeway but why the unnecessary harshness on the other students? They aren't a selective school full of high achieving, academic students with perfectly engaged parents who can pick on such small things. They are a school with a large proportion of deprived students and their focus should be on making sure that they(and the rest of the students) get an education.

Whilst both my children have told me that there are many children from the deprived area that rarely attend school, and when they do attend they are treated like long-lost war heroes by the staff and praised repeatedly. One girl who was in DD's year even got rewarded with a Dominos pizza sometimes on the days she actually decided to grace the school with her presence.

Didn’t even notice the total nastiness of this part on the first read.

What would op actually want? Should the school haul this child into the office every time she ‘graces them with her presence?’ Maybe they could make her feel so bad and small (about issues likely totally out of her control) that she’ll never grace them with her presence again?

It’s so disappointing. From my kids’ school experience I really thought we’d moved on from my school days. Although I suppose the school has, just some nasty parents can’t stand the idea that some kids are being helped up a bit so they are on a more even keel.

@TractorAndHeadphones

The issue is op’s bitter and nasty approach. I don’t agree with kids being sent home for uniform issues, but if that was an issue at my kids school I’d approach it from that angle. The op’s issue doesn’t seem to be her kids, but that she feels children from deprived backgrounds aren’t punished adequately and are treated as ‘loveable rogues’ when the fact is she is hearing this all through the lens of a child at school with them. The teachers are hardly going to broadcast ‘we are punishing Gemma for swearing’ or ‘James has additional needs and his dad’s just gone to jail so we’re giving him some leeway/extra support.’ It’s irrelevant and it paints op as just totally nasty.

If she had an issue with her kids being sent home for uniform violations her time to speak up was when that happened, not sit and stew over some other child wearing non uniform.

Can’t say wevever really noticed much about what other kids were wearing/doing because I was focussed on ours 🤷‍♀️

On balance I'm with you OP. And after your child being punished for being a victim of theft, I'd be looking to change schools.

I was once the well behaved teacher's pet child, and I saw that wasn't getting me anywhere, so I stopped being well behaved.

[quote Kanaloa]@TractorAndHeadphones

The issue is op’s bitter and nasty approach. I don’t agree with kids being sent home for uniform issues, but if that was an issue at my kids school I’d approach it from that angle. The op’s issue doesn’t seem to be her kids, but that she feels children from deprived backgrounds aren’t punished adequately and are treated as ‘loveable rogues’ when the fact is she is hearing this all through the lens of a child at school with them. The teachers are hardly going to broadcast ‘we are punishing Gemma for swearing’ or ‘James has additional needs and his dad’s just gone to jail so we’re giving him some leeway/extra support.’ It’s irrelevant and it paints op as just totally nasty.

If she had an issue with her kids being sent home for uniform violations her time to speak up was when that happened, not sit and stew over some other child wearing non uniform.[/quote]
OP's description of other kids does sound vile.
But some statements in the post are facts not seen through her children's lens.
The fact that her child was sent home at the gates
The fact that her son was sent to detention and what the head said when she phoned up.
That is why I picked on these - and they suggest the schools' unnecessary harshness.
Again I don't condone the way OP speaks about deprived children (war heroes? really? come on) but that doesn't mean she's wrong.
Again it's different if there were a small number of kids being given leeway (and everyone understood) but if it's half the school it does create a divide.
Furthermore pp have said it's up to the OP to 'explain the differences' in treatment and in OP's case her kids have an involved parent but that's not necessarily true. A child could be not visibly deprived but have other issues and with such draconian laws for them (but lax treatment for others) feel like they're punished. Again it's not a race to the bottom.

Anyway all of this usually ends up with people pulling their kids out if they have any choice - and the school deteriorating into a sink school.

She is wrong though. If she had an issue with her child getting detention for not having a tie - which I absolutely would take issue with - then she needed to make a fuss, go into the headteacher, and demand to know why her child was being punished for having his tie stolen. If that didn’t solve it she could have escalated the issue after asking for an in writing confirmation that her son was having detention because another child stole his tie.

She decided instead to nastily comment on other children while doing nothing to resolve the issue. And all the other stuff eg such and such swore at the teacher and didn’t get excluded, somebody else threw a desk and got away with it - total hearsay. OP doesn’t and has no right to know what happened in these situations, and they were likely dealt with appropriately in a private way.

@MadMadMadamMim

there are many children from the deprived area that rarely attend school, and when they do attend they are treated like long-lost war heroes by the staff and praised repeatedly.

she actually decided to grace the school with her presence.

I genuinely cannot tell you how deeply unpleasant you sound about children from what are clearly deprived backgrounds. I would be embarrassed to have written such a bitchy post. Also - bear in mind you are simply getting your DCs second hand descriptions of what they think is happening. You aren't actually in the classes and don't see what's going on.

Maybe you should just focus on parenting your own children instead of spilling out bile about other people's?

I agree OP. You have no idea about these kids’ lives and the traumas they have experienced, and neither do your children. It’s a bit late in the day but it’s time to start teaching your children a bit of tolerance and to think what could be going on behind the scenes. If you want to complain about your child’s treatment then go for it but leave these poor kids out of it.

@underneaththeash

Just put your child’s name down for the better school. Someone will leave and they can have a better, fairer education at the other school. Education and social work is unfortunately staffed by well-meaning ineffectual lefties who don’t understand that children need consistency and boundaries.

Ah yes, that’ll be the right wing who are achieving great results for children then through funding cuts to the services they need and steadily increasing child poverty!!

On balance I'm with you OP. And after your child being punished for being a victim of theft, I'd be looking to change schools.

As a pp said above I would change schools, imagine being punished for having your tie stolen and wearing slightly short trousers?! It's nothing to do with how deprived kids are treated, it's about these incidents on their own

I don't feel as tho the OP is coming back, but @BarbaraPappa even if you don't post again, I hope you read these posts and start to rethink some of your views.

If I were you I would query with the school some of the things that are happening wrt your own DC - sent home for short trousers, detention for stolen tie - as I agree, these would not be acceptable.

But I would ask you earnestly to talk to your DC about how others do not have what they have and they would do well to remember that.