State retirement age is too old for working class people

[Spiceup]

An observation from some things I've seen lately. I'll explain.

I work in a public sector organisation that employees highly qualified and very well paid professionals alongside support staff on not much more than minimum wage and those in between.

Part of my role is managing sickness absence. What I am seeing lately is that the professional types, despite doing what are generally accepted to be stressful jobs, on the whole, stay well until well into their sixties, although many do retire earlier simply because they have the kind of pensions that make that possible.

People in the more lowly jobs are often genuinely finished by their mid-late 50s. Just worn out and suffering from multiple health problems. Perhaps because of their lifestyles or maybe from just having harder lives (not necessarily harder work lives, but getting by is just generally harder for them). To have to go on to 67 is just absurd and very few do, with ill health retirement common (so the state is paying anyway).

I can't begin to imagine how similar people manage in genuinely physical jobs, in construction for example.

Is it more common for working class people in their 50s to be worn out, or perhaps more comfortably off professionals retire before they get to that point so I don't see it?

Given life expectancy even in the poor areas is still high 70s, automatic access to pension fund at age (say) 52 would mean 1/3 of adult life not working for vast majority, in theory. That doesn't make sense.

All of these systems are wealth transfers from those working to those who have retired. If you take large numbers out of the first group and move them into the second group you have simultaneously cut the supply of money into the system and increased the outflow. Without massively raising taxes on those still paying in or cutting benefits, it's not possible. Extending retirement benefits to younger and younger groups was one of the things the drove the Greek government to insolvency not that many years ago.

I’ve just turned 39 & the thought of another 30 years of work ahead of me - I don’t see how that’s going to happen! It chills me, quite honestly. I’m knackered as it is trying to hold down a semi-professional job & raise a family. My body is broken and I’m mentally exhausted.

I never thought I’d feel like this at 39. There’s nothing left in the tank - certainly not enough to another 30 yrs of this.

@TuftyMarmoset

The problem is that the state pension is so expensive to fund even with the age as late as it is, over £100 billion a year. It seems likely to me that the age is driven far more by what is affordable to the government than when people actually stop being productive at work. I’m 26 and over my lifetime I’m expecting taxes to rise to pay for it and state retirement age to rise quite a lot - probably something like 75, definitely after 70.

Based on average incomes and average life expectancy, paying tax over their working life, then claiming the state pension, but no other benefits throughout life a person would pay in a net amount of £122k. However once you factor in education, healthcare, as well as proportional costs of policing, defence, the machinery of state etc. most people end up costing the state several hundred thousand over the course of their lives.

Most people do not come close to making a lifetime net contribution, people need to pay in more, either by paying higher taxes or paying them for longer.

I am in my late thirties, I expect that the pension age will have pushed back to 70 by the time I get there, I also can't see that there will be a state pension by the time I do retire as it just is not sustainable without a substantive increase in tax rates in the UK and we don't seem to have any appetite for tax rises in the UK.

I took early retirement from a stressful job in the public sector. I wasn't on my feet all day doing a physical job but, my god was it stressful. I think people underestimate how awful it is to feel constantly stressed. I used to hope that something would happen to me so that I didn't have to go to work, well something did happen, I became ill mentally and that put paid to being able to work.
I agree completely that 67 is much too old for retirement. I now have severe arthritis and I would never have been able to work the way I feel physically.
BTW, if I hear one more person say 'I thrive on stress' I will scream. And another thing, it's the government's fault that they couldn't sort out investing the NI contributions so that the state pension self funds

Were you a teacher? I couldn’t do it physically or mentally anymore in my late 50’s. That’s why l got ill health retirement.

I think not many are well enough to work FT at age 67. There will just be a lot in job club or on sickness benefits.

@MatildaIThink what do you count as a working life out of interest? Like most working class people of my generation I started full time work at 16 years old. I will have worked for far longer, some of it on what would be now below minimum wage with no benefits, for far longer than younger people will today who often don't start full time working till their twenties.

The net amount of taxation over the average lifetime quoted by the above poster of £122,000 does not take into account indirect taxation, ie VAT and duty of goods even stamp duty on houses. Taking these figures into account would make the average contribution way higher.

@bestcattoyintheworld

When I was nursing, we were all struggling with health issues. The care assistants in particular had it hard due to the amount of moving and handling they had to do. The older nurses struggled with 12 hour shifts. Luckily, I could afford to quit nursing at age 50, but can only manage light menial work now.

I think 67 for retirement age is ridiculous. I suppose they'll save money through killing people off with hard work before they can claim their pension.

So true.

I was not a teacher, but my job was certainly stressful. when I started the job I was told that most didn't last more than 5 years in that role. I did more than 5 times that!

We have huge problems saved up for when my generation (mid-40s) starts to retire, as the cost of living has been accelerating throughout our working lives and wages have not. Housing is going to be a major problem. I agree with pp’s who’ve raised the extra responsibilities of women too, especially given what we’ve seen over COVID - women being pushed out to care for children. Either men step up, or they acknowledge our greater burdens.

It’s all tied into the problems of work in our times too - for instance the constant need and expectation of CPD for cud’s sake, and the genuine need to retrain as technology and the requirements of the economy shift. Yet retraining is unaffordable. We have huge problems headed our way.

Cpd not cud’s sake! I corrected the autocorrect once!

I've been thinking about this a lot lately. At the start of the pandemic, my hair dresser early-retired. She was 64 and the standing up all day with her arms raised up was hurting her anyway. Then, two more hairdressers in the same shop retired - late 50s.

I was moved to a woman (58) still doing hair 3 days a week. She was physically suffering as well with the standing up, with the arms raised up to cut and blow dry. She also had carpal tunnel in her wrists.

I am in an office job and the older co-workers (55+) suffer most from the commuting - especially the ones driving themselves.

I just don't understand working until 67 - how that is physically and mentally possible?

Then I think of people still working at 65+ and many are way past their prime - once they were amazing - now, not so much - but they don't realize. That's sad, too. There needs to be a way to ramp down.

@megletthesecond

I agree. Low paid work takes a toll on the body.

Agree with this. I sit at my desk all day and i bring avocados to work and bore my colleagues with low carb tips and i believe i could work til 66 but im not working for aldi, or on a building site.

I think most people agree that it would be lovely for everyone to retire 10 or 15 years early if you can get someone else to pay for it. Realistically, the government is never going to raise taxes enough to make it possible.

There's a movement of people who are working to make it possible on their own.

www.investopedia.com/terms/f/financial-independence-retire-early-fire.asp

The government pension should be considered one part of retirement income, not the whole thing. If you want to retire early, you have to plan and act accordingly.

Most people do not come close to making a lifetime net contribution, people need to pay in more, either by paying higher taxes or paying them for longer.

That’s excluding the value of their labour though, which is paid for at rather less than true value.

I decided not to go back to the NHS and my nursing registration expires in a few months.
I’ve taken a low paid, part time low stress job which I hope to do for a few more years. I’m lucky as I get a small NHS pension too.

Had a friend who was still doing 12 hour shifts into her 60s, she was permanently exhausted and the workload was making her ill.

@MissConductUS

I think most people agree that it would be lovely for everyone to retire 10 or 15 years early if you can get someone else to pay for it. Realistically, the government is never going to raise taxes enough to make it possible.

There's a movement of people who are working to make it possible on their own.

www.investopedia.com/terms/f/financial-independence-retire-early-fire.asp

The government pension should be considered one part of retirement income, not the whole thing. If you want to retire early, you have to plan and act accordingly.

I will be honest. I just see this and think fuck off. For most low paid workers we can pay into a private pension to enhance the state pension. I was never going to be able to save enough to retire early. And most low paid people never will either. I know plenty of well-off people retiring early though. Those in jobs where they are more likely to be able to work till 67 are those who tend to retire early.

Is the low life expectancy related to job fatigue, poor diet, lack of exercise/personal health or a combination.
When I last worked Glasgow some of colleagues classed cold chips as a salad.
Even with the best will in the world a few of them wouldn't make old bones. Lifestyle choices make even the young old if they're incorrect.

It’s not all about lifestyle choices though is it. Some people are dealt a rough hand health wise or poverty in their childhood meant they didn’t thrive as well as kids from middle class backgrounds. Being cold and living in damp conditions also impact on arthritis and other physical ailments. It’s far more complicated than that.

Given life expectancy even in the poor areas is still high 70s,“

Sorry, this is just wrong (and way out). Following from Lancashire County Council website:

“The figures below refer to the 2017-19 period unless stated.

Healthy life expectancy (HLE) at birth for males (all ages) in the Lancashire-12 area (60.6 years) is significantly worse than England (63.2 years).
Blackpool (53.7 years) has the lowest male HLE expectancy in England; Blackburn with Darwen (59.6 years) is also one of the lowest. Both are significantly worse than England (63.2 years).
For females, HLE in Lancashire-12 (62.0 years) is significantly worse than England (63.5 years), Blackpool (55.3 years) and Blackburn with Darwen (59.7 years) are also significantly worse”.

Perhaps you don’t live in one of “the poor areas”.

@PickUpAPepper

Most people do not come close to making a lifetime net contribution, people need to pay in more, either by paying higher taxes or paying them for longer.

That’s excluding the value of their labour though, which is paid for at rather less than true value.

Exactly. If we want people to be able to fund their own retirement by paying significant amounts into pensions, then things like social care need to start paying enough to enable that to happen - which is going to increase the cost to those who pay and to the tax payer. It's a vital service in society that society benefits from either directly or indirectly, and is paid the least amount legally allowed, doesn't pay things like sick pay which means people work through things they really should be having time to recover from, which has an effect on long term health and ability to work longer, is heavy and emotionally and mentally taxing. Ditto for nursing I guess as their pensions have taken a hammering, although they still have them. You can't pay a pittance for essential services that you're gaining benefit from while simultaneously pointing the finger and telling them they aren't contributing enough to society financially and are the problem. Either we pay them enough so they can contribute more financially to society or we expect that they won't and accept they need to be supported past the end of working age - and be realistic about what that is.

Life expectancy overall has dropped now due to Covid.

Brilliant post @Maverickess

I find this very at odds with my own life experience in my very working class family. My father worked in a full time manual role doing 55 hour weeks until he was in his late 60s, and then continued on a part time basis thereafter. He had no entitlement to pension or other benefits so had no choice but to keep going.

Other family members have also worked into their 70s running their own businesses (which required a lot of physical work and working 6-7 days per week. Going back further my great grandparents were farmworkers and shop keepers and again - in the days before the welfare state - worked well into their 70s or beyond.

I don't think expecting people to work to 67 or even 70 is wrong.

I've been saying this recently.....the retirement age is too late for many of us. I understand they had to make it later because people are living longer, but the jump is too big.

I grew up expecting to retire at 60 but now it's 66. I have just over 3 years to go and I wonder how I will make it. I've worked in different fields during my life but currently in hospitality and I really don't have the energy I used to have. I clean rooms so my back aches, my arms ache, the industrial vacuum cleaners are too heavy for me and now I have a prolapse too. The work is heavy and poorly paid compared to previous jobs. There's little about locally (I live very rurally) so just changing jobs isn't really an option like it would be in a town.

I only have the state pension and could live on it once I get there, but at this rate I will be lucky to reach pensionable age! I do think its very unfair.