State retirement age is too old for working class people

[Spiceup]

An observation from some things I've seen lately. I'll explain.

I work in a public sector organisation that employees highly qualified and very well paid professionals alongside support staff on not much more than minimum wage and those in between.

Part of my role is managing sickness absence. What I am seeing lately is that the professional types, despite doing what are generally accepted to be stressful jobs, on the whole, stay well until well into their sixties, although many do retire earlier simply because they have the kind of pensions that make that possible.

People in the more lowly jobs are often genuinely finished by their mid-late 50s. Just worn out and suffering from multiple health problems. Perhaps because of their lifestyles or maybe from just having harder lives (not necessarily harder work lives, but getting by is just generally harder for them). To have to go on to 67 is just absurd and very few do, with ill health retirement common (so the state is paying anyway).

I can't begin to imagine how similar people manage in genuinely physical jobs, in construction for example.

Is it more common for working class people in their 50s to be worn out, or perhaps more comfortably off professionals retire before they get to that point so I don't see it?

@TomPinch

Oh - I missed your point about voluntary groups and paying for things that used to be free. I completely agree. But I think that has got more to do with people not having as much time now - if both parents of a family are in FT jobs then who can help out with Scouts etc? Also, voluntary organisations require a lot more admin now due to regulations etc. My DM spent much of her life being involved in social groups. A lot of what used to happen has just stopped. They can't get the volunteers and the work required to do the same as before has increased. People are also less inclined to be part of voluntary organisations - see for example the massive decline in organised religion.

It's a tremendous loss to the community - one which I don't think has been properly realised - but I don't think it's got that much to do with pensions.

I agree with this. If only one adult in the house has to work full time, both adults have more free time overall to volunteer, pursue hobbies etc.

With 2 adults having to work, people are working for most of the day, then have all the chores to do when they finish. People are run ragged just trying to stay on top of things. Hardly a surprise that fewer of then have the time or inclination to volunteer in social groups.

My original point wasn't about libg luxurious retirements though, it was that I see many many people in their late 50s who are simply no longer fit to work, at least not fit to work FT. They may have many years made to live (with variable quality of life) but they're not able to work any longer.

Pensions won't be worthless in the future as
a) it's a massive disincentive to pay in; b) unless we allow radical mass immigration, pensioners will continue to be one of the largest voting groups around thanks to a declining birth rate and c) Granny starving in the street is a massive justice issue.

Now; I can see the state pension being replaced by a living wage but that presumes a fundamental change to society and a move away from the capitalist system we have at the moment.

That sort of shift is usually preceded with a world war or a breakdown of society (a.k.a Black Death). I know the Tories are doing their best, but they are not that efficient.

@TheABC

Pensions won't be worthless in the future as a) it's a massive disincentive to pay in; b) unless we allow radical mass immigration, pensioners will continue to be one of the largest voting groups around thanks to a declining birth rate and c) Granny starving in the street is a massive justice issue.

Now; I can see the state pension being replaced by a living wage but that presumes a fundamental change to society and a move away from the capitalist system we have at the moment.

That sort of shift is usually preceded with a world war or a breakdown of society (a.k.a Black Death). I know the Tories are doing their best, but they are not that efficient.

In relation to your points a) We have no choice but to pay in, we cannot opt out of income tax or national insurance. b) Pensioners still vote at a higher rate than younger people, but that is changing over time. Those born around WWII see it as their duty, many others do not. It is also expected that turnout at the next election amongst young people might rise significantly, largely due to climate change. c) I don't think you will see granny starving in the street, but she might well end up living with her children if she only has a state pension as the ability to fund living independently on the state pension only will likely not exist.

When you say "replaced by a living wage", do you mean UBI? I can't see that happening either, it involves too much of a move away from every system that has worked economically, and towards every system which has not worked economically. It could only ever work in a post-scarcity society and we are a long way away from that if it is even possible.

Depending on the region the black death killed between a third and three quarters of the population and lead to near full employment, having wiped out many of the elderly and infirm. Society was left with a group of largely healthy, working people, as well as children, the follow on group of healthy, working people. Covid has not even killed 0.1% of the population and over the Covid period the population has still continued to rise (births higher than deaths).

@MatildaIThink Granny wont have to live with her kids. If you only get state pension and hardly any savings you get top up benefits. My parents live on this.
Lots of people in the future will inherit from parents who bought their own house. They will be fine. Only a small proportion lose all inheritance to care homes.

[quote julieca]@MatildaIThink Granny wont have to live with her kids. If you only get state pension and hardly any savings you get top up benefits. My parents live on this.
Lots of people in the future will inherit from parents who bought their own house. They will be fine. Only a small proportion lose all inheritance to care homes.[/quote]
I don't think in the future the state pension will be worth what it is now and the top up benefits will be phased out, or similarly devalued.

Our state pension is already worth less than pensions in equivalent countries in the EU. I don't see how people can survive if it becomes worth less.
Also given the views expressed by younger people on MN, they simply wont let their parents stay with them. There is an overwhelming view that they have zero responsibility towards older parents.

Our state pension is already worth less than pensions in equivalent countries in the EU. I don't see how people can survive if it becomes worth less.
By moving in with family... It is what used to happen, it is still fairly common in much of Europe and very common in much of the rest of the world.

Also given the views expressed by younger people on MN, they simply wont let their parents stay with them. There is an overwhelming view that they have zero responsibility towards older parents.
There might be some like that on here, but I don't know anyone in real life who is so callous and uncaring towards their own parents.

Matilda - I think lots wont allow at. There are also a lot more adults without kids.
I know the Tories want to go back to the model of family caring for family. But individualism and selfishness which they promoted has gone too far. You cant just put the genie back in the bottle.
And yes lots of people are that callous with lots of justifications about how its just not possible. It wont happen. It didn't even always happen back in the past, that is why workhouses existed. Their main occupants were people too old to work.

[quote julieca]@MatildaIThink Granny wont have to live with her kids. If you only get state pension and hardly any savings you get top up benefits. My parents live on this.
Lots of people in the future will inherit from parents who bought their own house. They will be fine. Only a small proportion lose all inheritance to care homes.[/quote]
Do your parents not struggle ? Or are they happy just doing day to day stuff and not going on holiday, to the theatre, meals out?
My Mum is 85 ..... she gets state pension plus top up from my Dads pension so about £201 then she gets another £90 quid a week private pension.....But if She hadn’t down sized then got some inheritances , she wouldn’t be able to do half of what she does..... I worry about my Mum all the time as I live a distance away....but I don’t worry about her finances at least

YANBU.
Yes life rates are longer, but dementia rates are higher, as are the proportion of elderly suffering from various ailments.
I'd rather retire at 50, and not be any medication, blood thinners or whatever, die when it is my time and enjoy my old age.
However I am very working class, minimum wage care job, I will probably have to work until I die.
Due to the nature of my job, I won't be taking any life prolonging medications, I do not want that to be my future or my retirement.

@Kitkat151 my parents have always struggled financially. They go walks, see the grandchildren, go on family meals out, and get cheap cinema and theatre tickets. They haven't been on holiday for years.
Lots of people never have much money, they learn to do things they can afford to do.
Its why weatherspoons is so popular, it is cheap. I know people on MN talk about going to the Fat Duck, but that isn't life for most people.

Also my parents still pay rent.

Rolling my eyes at lots of people getting inheritance.
My grandmother died renting. My mother will die renting. I am quite certain I will die renting. There will be no inheritance at all.

[quote julieca]@Kitkat151 my parents have always struggled financially. They go walks, see the grandchildren, go on family meals out, and get cheap cinema and theatre tickets. They haven't been on holiday for years.
Lots of people never have much money, they learn to do things they can afford to do.
Its why weatherspoons is so popular, it is cheap. I know people on MN talk about going to the Fat Duck, but that isn't life for most people.[/quote]
I guess you are right..... my Mum struggled financially as she was a young widow but the last 20 years she has had lots more money so she can afford to do anything she wants these days..... but she’s lucky I know..... my Mum still likes a visit to wethies though!

Friend 50s, gave up her job to care for her elderly parent who was terminally ill. She only received carers allowance for 3 years

Who can afford to do this ?

I'm working class. Unless I have a pension worth retiring to ( I haven't) I will be working as long as I an able to. Actual retirement age doesn't factor in.

@Rugsofhonour most people dont stay in care homes very long before dying. Most people are at home with carers. Middle class people on decent private pensions will largely pay for carers out of their own income and savings. The house will still be inherited.
And people live on carers allowance because if that is your only income you get other benefits too. It is the same as a single persons unemployment benefit. Those who say that is all they get either have large savings or more commonly a partner earning.

I agree OP. If we want to keep people working for longer - which genuinely can be beneficial for them and society - we need to think about:

• reducing the toll on them earlier in their career. This means physical demands must be lowered (.g. Amazon expecting super human rates of packing in their distribution centres) and stress levels must be better balanced in stressful jobs (e.g. forbidding employers to expect someone to always be available, even outside working hours).
• perhaps also looking at a shorter average working week to bring the 'norm' back down to around 30-35 hours a week and really ringfencing substantial breaks during the day so that, for example, 2 x 30mins break in a 12 hour shift is not acceptable.
• greater support for more flexible working into older age, such as eligibility to reduce hours further, to reduce responsibilities and physical demands, increase options such a job share being more widely accepted and used

I know a few people who were/are mentally or physically shot by the time they were 60 and yet still face(d) anohter 5-8 years of working before their state pension starts. For them, life is one long slog until they get there.

And yes, the Queen is a great example of what can be achieved with astronomical high levels of support in place

@FindingMeno

I'm working class. Unless I have a pension worth retiring to ( I haven't) I will be working as long as I an able to. Actual retirement age doesn't factor in.

That's my point though. Among the WC people we employ, few seem to be physically able to work much beyond late 50s.

@Rugsofhonour Yes, this kind of financial abuse of older people by families is already an issue and will increase.
Yes carers allowance and benefits are very low, and no it does not encourage people to give up work. I do know women in my generation who have though. I don't think the younger generation will.
I think there will be lots of lonely older people at home with brief carers visits, being inadequately looked after.

@Cable1905

I retired at 60 from teaching a couple of months ago and I felt ready to go. In a conversation with one of the classroom assistants who is same age she commented that she was looking after her grandson at night to allow her daughter to work, she is also a carer for her mother. Her job is difficult and she has been physically assaulted in the past. She is knackered but retirement is another 7 years away for her. Making the retirement age the same for both sexes never took into account what the majority of woman do. Many are caught in the middle, caring for older and younger family plus the effects of the menopause. Too many women are burnt out just holding their family together and many will have a very poor quality of life when they do retire. Life expectancy is declining in the UK

Yes!!!