Do parents tell their sons about the early years?

[TaraR2020]

I've been wondering about this for a while.

Time and time again I hear about marriages struggling during the early years of child rearing. Obviously the struggle occurs in happy and healthy marriages too, but I read so many posts on these forums about husbands and partners who have unreasonable expectations of their wives and girlfriends.

You know what I mean...expecting sex and spontaneity etc while the woman is left with the majority- if not all - of the "drudge" work.

I'm not suggesting it's a parental responsibility to educate grown men about how tough these years can be and all the women I know with sons are raising lovely, kind boys.

But I wonder if when their younger - in their teens maybe - if parents never explain that no one is going to feel much like regular sex when they've been cooking, cleaning and chasing around after young children (and perhaps their husband) for days on end without relief.

Not knowing how navigate these issues is unfair to the man too, because they end up feeling neglected and rejected when it's the neglect of the woman* that seems to be the problem.

*(Obviously, I know there are wonderfully supportive husbands and partners who do more than their fair share, and partnerships where the traditional roles are reversed.
I'm also not trying to exclude lgbt+ relationships from this but I tend to only hear about these issues in male/female partnerships where the traditional gender roles are at play.)

Interested in others' thoughts on this?

What a strange, sexist post. Have you considered talking to your daughters, and telling them to only have children with men who do an equal share of the ‘cooking, cleaning and running around after children’?

I certainly expect to tell my sons about the realities of having a baby. I'll also kick their butts if I hear they're not pulling their weight. My plan is to send them off as adults knowing full well how to look after themselves (and others) domestically.

Do any parents speak to their children of any gender bout how regularly they should be having sex during the early stages of their relationship, throughout the difficult years and then as the children get older, then as menopause starts to rear it's head and ED makes things tricky!? Absolutely bloody not. Surely a married couple should be able to talk about this between themselves and decide what works for them.

While I take the 'traditional' role of cooking, cleaning and running after the children from 9-5, my husband gets up early with them, cooks when he isn't working, cleans what needs done when he can, does all the maintenance, takes kids to clubs and supports us all financially working a relentless job. He's tired too. Everyone is tired.

@Leavisite

I don't mean it to come across a sexist at all, and I should have mentioned that I believe all children - sons and daughters - should be brought up to split things equally.

But I don't think its a strange question to ask - I read so many posts here about fathers who seem not to understand how the daily grind affects their other halves - and it makes them miserable too!

I'm also not criticising anyone's parenting on this website, I'm just curious as to why men - and in the context of those who post here it is typically men - who seem to have unreasonable expectations of their wives.

I think this is a really thoughtful post, not sexist at all.

I'll do my best to educate my son about how to treat women, particularly the mother of his children.

I completely get this. DH and I are in the process of separating. He claims he no longer loves me as has felt neglected since dc were born. I have felt exhausted balancing work and a young family, and all the mental load that goes with it. I certainly wish he had had different expectations of marriage with small children.

I think this just comes under the bracket of emotional intelligence and raising children well to be good people?

Do any parents speak to their children of any gender bout how regularly they should be having sex during the early stages of their relationship, throughout the difficult years and then as the children get older, then as menopause starts to rear it's head and ED makes things tricky!? Absolutely bloody not. Surely a married couple should be able to talk about this between themselves and decide what works for them

But that's my point, I'm not suggesting lectures etc but surely it's worth preparing people with more awareness than they seem to have? It's great,, the way menopause has been getting more attention recently.

Or maybe it's a generational thing? One we're already changing with the next generation of young people.

I think I'm trying to understand why, with the introduction of bringing up children, there are so many partners who remove themselves from the grind and then don't understand why their other halves don't have the energy they used to.

Not a men bashing thread! Again, I know it isn't true of every couple and lots of wonderful men, many whose wives take advantage etc, but so many posts here about fathers who seem to have no awareness of what daily life is like for their other halves and I'm wondering why this disconnect happens to such a degree.

But I wonder if when their younger - in their teens maybe - if parents never explain that no one is going to feel much like regular sex when they've been cooking, cleaning and chasing around after young children (and perhaps their husband) for days on end without relief.

Let me get this right, you are suggesting we tell our sons when they are teenagers that it is normal and right that women are the ones who naturally will be doing all the domestic chores and so they should benevolently be forgiving when their little wife doesn't feel like sex? How about instead spend your time teaching them how take an equal part in parenting and running the home?

Lol no that's not what I'm saying at all

@Jasmine11

But I wonder if when their younger - in their teens maybe - if parents never explain that no one is going to feel much like regular sex when they've been cooking, cleaning and chasing around after young children (and perhaps their husband) for days on end without relief.

Let me get this right, you are suggesting we tell our sons when they are teenagers that it is normal and right that women are the ones who naturally will be doing all the domestic chores and so they should benevolently be forgiving when their little wife doesn't feel like sex? How about instead spend your time teaching them how take an equal part in parenting and running the home?

I think that was part of what the OP was trying to say.

Boys do need to be taught about more equal contribution, telling is good but ultimately role modelling is going to be more effective.

I think I can see what you mean OP (and I think a few PP have jumped on an interpretation there). I have a theory on this.

I think there is a tendency to want to be the mum to our DC who has it all together , as a parent you wouldn't tell your DC that you found it tough when they were babies because you don't want them to think they were a burden etc. You want them to see you can cope and they are safe with you. The trouble is if you do it too much it changes the perspective.

I have two DS and I know I wouldn't outright admit that I found it tough and needed help( my dc are still children so obviously it wouldn't be appropriate) but I've met many men who hold their mother up as this paragon of perfection. So they assume women have it built in. (I mean it's not logical but it happens in their head).

So they compare this fictional perfect mother to a wife they see struggling and don't connect the dots that their mother felt the same but never told them that.

I already teach my DC as do Exdh and DP that it is a partnership , we don't do the expectations that mum does it all but that's very different than talking to them about the reality.

I will when they are older because I feel passionately that it should be equal (it wasn't with theor father at the time who has learnt his lesson after our divorce but I won't put it in those terms as I won't blame their father) but I can understand why in the past the instinct was to be seen as the good mother to your children and there has been a messed up idea that admitting you needed help seemed against that.

Thank goodness that idea has lost sway. I do agree that sometimes this image of being the perfect mother to our children needs to be more realistic so they understand that being a good mother is not about doing it all ourselves and that a good mother is not synonymous with doing everything. I do see however that people may struggle to be honest with their DS. That's an old perspective that we need to get past.

@TaraR2020 I think this is a very thoughtful post and not “man-bashing” at all. Rightly, when bringing up children, we don’t want them to see the strain and toll that it can take on us. Regardless of how our own households are run, our boys and girls will grow up in a world where society often socialises them to become increasingly comfortable with certain regressive, gendered expectations. My mother was a SAHP and had to do so for various reasons. She brought me up to believe that I can have a brilliant career and support myself, but also that it’s brilliant to stay home to look after children if that’s what I want, but both are tough options. Lots of discussion from her and other women throughout my life about the trials and challenges of being pregnant, giving birth and bringing up children.

My brothers and their male friends are all amazing, loving and kind, however they only have quite backwards views of childbirth and no one has ever spoken to them about the realities of physical/psychological recovery from birth or about child rearing, apart from the tired jokes about sexless marriages.

I have my own little boys now and I hope that my husband and I are bringing them up to see the challenges of both working and looking after a home, so that he can respect his future partner’s contribution to their home and family well being, and pull his own weight without stupidly asking “how can I help” as he sees his pregnant wife climb the stairs with the third load of washing that day after cooking and tidying the kitchen…

The people saying “why don’t you just teach your daughters to marry someone who pulls their own weight” have clearly not witnessed or listened to the experiences of the vast majority of women here or in my own life who become rapidly hemmed in and dissatisfied by the gendered expectations of a hetero marriage, which is often quite different to expectations and behaviour before marriage. It’s totally unrealistic to expect women to change the chauvinism in society. It’s a social issue that is up to men to change too, but they have a vested interested in maintaining the status quo.

No matter what you tell someone the realities are often different though. No amount of preparing in theory equates with the reality. I think the important thing is for both parties to talk, openly and honestly about what they think is important in any scenario. I often think that it is a great skill to be able to talk without getting angry, to listen to what is being said, to ask intelligent questions and to reach a conclusion that suits both parties.
That said; we should bring our children up to do chores, keep rooms tidy and not expect the female of the species to do everything. We are not Superwoman.

Thank you to those of you who get where I'm coming from. I tried to word my post carefully without making it overly long but can see I've failed massively!

@LouLou198 you've hit the nail on the head about having matching marital expectations. And maybe, aside from parental modelling, the focus on getting this right should be elsewhere.

@Nietzschethehiker thank you that's a really interesting reply, I hadn't considered about the difference between idealised Mother and the real Wife but you're so right.

I think that demonstration is the best way. If boys (and girls) grow up seeing their dad take an equal role in house stuff then they are much more likely to see this as the norm.
I grew up in a deeply sexist household where the lines were strictly drawn and I hated seeing my mum doing all that. But on balance I saw my grandparents the opposite. I would just as readily come home to find my Grandad doing the ironing as my Gran. And I would often come into the kitchen to see my Grandad with a teatowel over his shoulder baking for the church sale. He was fab my Grandad. Never seen someone with so much respect for a woman as he did for my Gran. I know which couple I wanted to be mor elike when I got older.
They were a team. So, i think the best thing, as well as talking to them and as a PP says teaching emotional intelligence is to model behaviors. Show them that this is how life should be.

I’m not sure how many teenagers of either sex would want to listen to their parents talking about how parenthood affects sex. And I’m not sure that advice from parents on raising children tends to go down well unless the child is asking for it - things seem to change a lot in terms of best practice. I’m 33 weeks pregnant and most of what DHs parents have tried to tell us is outdated, and I’m in multiple pregnancy groups, none of which have anyone who doesn’t seem annoyed when they feel that someone’s parents “way” is being pushed on them.

That said, whoever we have, I do intend to raise them to play an equal part. And I’ve noticed in the past few months that while a lot of people here say that they want to teach their kids that it’s all joint responsibility etc… a lot also caveat that with saying that the man still works the longer hours, or they’ve given up their job, or they do all the housework… and I think what you demonstrate is arguably more important than what you say.

So I also made sure DH was a genuine equal partner before I married him. My career is just as important as his. He’s more than capable, and regularly does, clean then bathroom or run the Hoover round. We both wash up. We’ll both do childcare. We are a team. I want my sons to see that this is normal, and my daughters to know that this exists and they can look for it.

I’ve by no means got this all figured out, nobody does, but I suspect changing the status quo comes down more to actually demonstrating the ideologies you’re trying to promote rather than telling teenagers that having kids will change how much sex they get. I think that’d just make most teens cringe, and try to forget the conversation ever happened.

@Leavisite

What a strange, sexist post. Have you considered talking to your daughters, and telling them to only have children with men who do an equal share of the ‘cooking, cleaning and running around after children’?

I don't think it's not strange at all. Telling girls to avoid something rather than teaching boys to be proactive and aware isnt going to make a difference to the attitude of boys.

They need to be taught about equal contribution in family life from a young age. Obviously if it's modelled in their own home they grow up absorbing it but if it's not then it needs to be taught.

How many posts on here do you see from women at the end of their tether with men who "just don't see mess" when really it's "just can't be arsed and don't care that it matters to her".

@Nietzschethehiker makes a great point about the perfect mum vs the perfect mum.

DP's mum was SAHM but he has never expected me to stay at home and when his mum has said something critical about the state of our house (eg that I might like to dust a bit more frequently!) he has pointed out that he does most of the cleaning and it's not my responsibility and to mind her own business!

I really try to enforce boundaries with my own kids and model someone who has their own interests and hobbies (not just 'mum') and isn't last in the queue in the family.

I will openly say that looking after babies / small children is hard work and can be lonely.

I’m not sure when they are teens! But will focus on them being competent boys who can cook and clean. When their partners are expecting (should that happen) I do think it very likely I tell them both their dad cooked every night the first month or two after baby was born and did most of the cleaning on the weekends (I won’t mention that he was absolutely bloody useless at nights). Our boys grow up with a very clear impression of a dad parenting though; we both work so he picks them up and does dinner every night.

Should have said perfect mum vs perfect wife.

@HeyFloof, what is sexist in the post I was referring to was the assumption that women were the ones ‘running around after children’ and doing the cooking and cleaning. That’s not the case in my marriage. It doesn’t have to be the case in anyone’s. I think that’s key, not delegating it to women to train their sons not to ‘expect sex and spontaneity’ on top of the drudgework. The OP seems to be unquestioning of the notion that women are doing everything.

@Leavisite
I literally said "Obviously, I know there are wonderfully supportive husbands and partners who do more than their fair share, and partnerships where the traditional roles are reversed."

[quote TaraR2020]@Leavisite
I literally said "Obviously, I know there are wonderfully supportive husbands and partners who do more than their fair share, and partnerships where the traditional roles are reversed."[/quote]
Yes, you did, but you’re presenting that as unusual and requiring a ‘wonderful’ man who is being ‘supportive’ of his wife in doing housework, cooking, childcare etc — that smacks of men ‘babysitting’ their own children.

I don’t think my husband is ‘wonderful and supportive’ for doing all the cooking and a lot of the child-related stuff. It’s his child and his house, too. He’s not ‘helping me out’, he’s doing his job as a co-parent, and fellow-household member.