Air source heat pumps - a bit off putting, or is it just me?

[FolornLawn]

I was surprised to see how big and ugly they are.

This article shows a picture of one, and I wouldn't want it in my small garden. Also the report says people will need room for a boiler and a water cylinder.

I'm quite surprised at how negatively I feel about the new plans. There's something about having to remodel bits of my house and garden that feels like an imposition, when I happily recycle, use washable sanitary pads and kitchen roll, go without a tumble dryer etc. Is it just me?

What about a gas job when you move to this stuff? Can you still keep that going? I don't think I could ever have an electric hob as they don't work well for me.

I’m pretty sure gas hobs will be banned / not allowed to be sold. I think I read something about those a few months ago.

There was a proposal to ban gas cookers and hobs from new homes from 2025, I imagine they will be around for the next ten or so years though in current homes and likely gone by 2035

Oh dear. I will have to buy calor gas canisters I assume to feed the gas into the hob in that case unless the law bans those too.

@RedRiverShore how do they ban it in current homes? Do uk banks even look at whether the stove use when giving out mortgages and majority of uk homes are mortgage free? my MIL wouldn't be able to afford to replace her kitchen and she uses gas. But she also wouldn't have a mortgage in 10 years time...

@Xenia all forms of combustion will cease, so gas hobs, gas ovens, petrol and diesel engines, lawnmowers, etc etc. Roughly 75% of CO2e emissions are directly from burning fossil fuels. Personally I find induction hobs better than gas and way way better than the old fashioned electric hobs.

@FolornLawn that's an air-source heat collector and heat pump in the BBC article. It has a fan which pulls air across the heat exchanger. The heat exchanger is like a reverse fridge and sucks the heat out of the air, and
condenses it into a much smaller volume of liquid.

Ground-source heat collectors are usually pipes buried in loops under a field, or in vertical wells below ground. The heat is collected in a fluid then passed through a heat pump. The heat pump is above-ground and would be like the air-source picture but minus the big fan, so more compact.

The temperature under the ground is much more stable than the air temperature overground, so in cold climates, it's worth going to the extra expense of drilling a well, or digging trenches to put the heat collector pipes into. This is because in the coldest part of the year, you can draw on the heat stored in the ground. In milder climate places, it's a less clear-cut choice. In very cold snaps, you'll just be using an air system like a regular electric heater, but if there are only cold snaps every 5 or 10 years, that might be ok, as it will still be cheaper over, say, 15 years to install and run an air system compared to a ground system.

The time it takes to get to the same installation and running cost point is called the 'payback' time. So it's cheaper to install air systems, but more expensive to run (compared to ground systems). In cold climates, you get to the cross-over point quicker, as running costs are higher for air systems as they are not as efficient as ground systems.

Both systems need a well-insulated and draught-free house at a minimum, as they are not high temperature like piping-hot rads, or an open fire or log burner.

I think overall they are a good idea, but a rush to install them without proper consideration is a crap idea. Subsidised roof and wall insulation and double glazing of all properties would probably be better in the first instance.

I have a gas boiler that’s 30 years old. It’s never once broken down. I have a gas hob too. I won’t replace them until I have to, because I can’t afford to. I’ve only got a back yard, so not much space for a heat pump. I won’t be able to afford the many thousands it looks like it’s going to cost. I’m hoping the costs come down and the technology improves.

[quote onlychildhamster]@RedRiverShore how do they ban it in current homes? Do uk banks even look at whether the stove use when giving out mortgages and majority of uk homes are mortgage free? my MIL wouldn't be able to afford to replace her kitchen and she uses gas. But she also wouldn't have a mortgage in 10 years time...[/quote]
Things just get phased out, I doubt anyone need worry about it at the moment, our gas cooker lasted 20 years and was still usable after that, I doubt our new electric one will last 10, they will just disappear over time as they wear out and get hard to replace. We changed to electric as the regulations with gas cookers meant we couldn't easily have it in the same position in the kitchen as our original cooker, too near an opening window apparently, was ok 20+ years ago but not now. You can still buy incandescent lightbulbs and they disappeared, they just re marketed as industrial bulbs

Its pretty normal where i live to have a heat pump and you really don't notice the outside bit i find...but its very rare to have radiators here, most people have a fire and a heat pump or only a heat pump but the house is newish, double glazed and fully insulated.

@Lemonlemon88
Where do you live? If people don’t have radiators, how does the heat from the pump get into the house to warm it?

You can use underfloor wet heating or have ducted warm air like an air conditioning system.

@Coogee

You can use underfloor wet heating or have ducted warm air like an air conditioning system.

Interesting. So, might radiators disappear altogether? I imagine underfloor heating would be difficult to retrofit - you’d have to dig up the floors. Is a ducted warm air system easier to install? I lived in a council flat that had a system like that, I think.

And gas bbqs.

I like cooking with gas on the hob.

I'm not convinced they will be able to produce all this electricity for cars etc

Interesting. So, might radiators disappear altogether? I imagine underfloor heating would be difficult to retrofit - you’d have to dig up the floors. Is a ducted warm air system easier to install? I lived in a council flat that had a system like that, I think.

Both systems are best built into a house from new. Retrofitting is difficult, yes.

@woodhill

And gas bbqs.

I like cooking with gas on the hob.

I'm not convinced they will be able to produce all this electricity for cars etc

Then we will have fewer cars and people will have to do without, as people did without live-in maids after the war. As it is, most people I know don’t have a car at all. It may be that individual vehicle ownership will be part of one of those weird timespans of a few decades that future generations find hard to understand. And there’s no excuse for a gas barbecue, even now. It’s hard for us to imagine, because we’ve got used to a world where everything gets gradually “better” than before, but we are perhaps heading into a time when things are worse than before - and they will be worse for a long time.

@woodhill There is definitely enough energy and the grid can cope easily.

www.nationalgrid.com/stories/journey-to-net-zero-stories/can-grid-cope-extra-demand-electric-cars

I don't use a gas bbq but they are popular

@daisypond where do you live that hardly anyone has cars? I live outside a small city and most people have at least one car per household, two if they can afford it (older cars, usually about 10 or more years old) because the public transport here is non existent. There are estates around here where there are no buses after 7pm because its not safe for the bus drivers to drive there, most of our supermarkets are a drive away, if you wanted to get a bus to Asda from where I live it would take over an hour or more for the first bus to go to the city centre, then the next bus to go out to Asda. Whereas if I drive there, it takes 10 mins max depending on the time of day. This isn't unusual around here.

@DinosaurOfFire I would say that in London, you don't really need a car from zone 1 to 3.. there are buses and the tube (which comes every 2 minutes). My DH's manager (executive director in an investment bank) doesn't have one, she used to have one but then she did a trial where she took Ubers home whenever she felt like it and even if she took multiple Ubers a week, it was far cheaper than car ownership esp if you account for car depreciation. Also it's not like you can drive to work in London if you work in central London, there is congestion charge and how are you supposed to find parking. Also in my area, most houses don't have off street parking. My flat block has off street parking but it isn't easy to find a spot too. Getting a car is very low on my priority list as a result. When I have a baby, I would just take lots of Ubers and use one of those prams which can attach a car seat.

@DinosaurOfFire
I’m in London and public transport is plentiful and 24/7. No-one would own an old car, because of the huge ULEZ fines you’ll get every time you use it. Add to that the cost of the congestion charge (daily) and expensive insurance and compulsory expensive residents’ permits, you can see why car ownership isn’t so common. We don’t have a car, nor do both of my neighbours and the majority of our friends. Most young people I know don’t even learn how to drive. There’s no point. Even if you have a visitor with a car or need a tradesperson with a vehicle, the hoops you have to jump through, applying to the council, and the cost of it all is expensive. Everything is being done to put people off. Even with some flats you buy, you will never be allocated the right to even park on the street, no matter how much you are willing to pay. There are a lot of electric car on-street charging points, so that is definitely the way things are going for those who want cars. Car clubs are quite common, though.

To give an idea of costs, ULEZ is £12.50 per day. Congestion charge is £15 per day. Residents’ permit for a band 6 car (don’t know what that is) is £318 per year, more if it’s diesel. So that’s a total of about £28 per day, not counting MOT, insurance, petrol or parking anywhere outside your official residents’ permit area.

More modern cars can drive into the outer zone for free I believe

Yes, you can see how people are forced, like it or not, to make changes. The powers that be make it expensive, time-consuming and a general hassle - because there are fines if you forget. It’ll be the same with gas boilers and appliances.

@daisypond its a bit different with cars. There is no obligation to live in zone 1-3 London; if you lived in zone 5 and didn't need to go into the City, you can keep the polluting car. And the house prices of the last 10 years has meant that the rich in zone 1-3 can easily afford whatever charges/can switch over to the new technology (and want to anyway), the poor can't really afford cars, the young people don't really need cars and the middle income people generally have to move further out for non car related reasons. On the other hand, everyone needs heating whichever part of the country you live in.