Oppressors

[NoJuliana]

Kind of shocking to see the amount of people prepared on Mumsnet to attack the use of the term Karen on the grounds that it is misogynistic - are you saying that women have to defend people who systematically use their race and class privilege to keep others down, just because they are women?? Are we meant to ignore their racism and tactical deployment of class status, because sisterhood? No thanks. People who behave in a way that has led to them being known collectively as Karens need to be called out on their behaviour. But I guess if the name Karen is offensive, we could just use the term Oppressor

Of course we're not saying that. The objection is to Karen being used to shut down middle aged women, it's a convenient way of not listening to our concerns. Tar us with an innacurate wiff of racism and we can easily be dismissed. As usual.

The same principle works for terf. It's inaccurately accusing us of hate so we will be demonized. DARVO in action.

But the point is that it ISNT one group of people who is rightfully having their behaviour held to account. It’s using a term to shut down opinion for a group of people who are already oppressed.

If a black person did something bad and then we all started using a historically black name as a term of offence to reflect this…. Well that wouldn’t be on now would it?

Oppressor would be better, that's what I'd prefer.

As long as its used correctly - it wouldn't be an oppressive act to stand up for yourself in a dispute, regardless what colour/sex/age either of the parties are.

I agree with you. The countless threads on here about Karen are about how it's a terrible term to use, misogynistic and hating women of a particular age. They never tackle the issue at the root of it. But it's not surprising, as I've said in other 'Karen' threads it's a bit like joining a vegan forum and expecting them to understand how a bacon sandwich would go amazingly with their kale smoothie.

Where do you even start with a post like this? "People known collectively as Karens" FFS.

You’ve quoted something there that wasn’t actually in the OP…

What is the issue at the root of it, Vladimir?

It would be good if we didn't assume who the baddie is in any random altercation based on their demographic.
Sometimes the white middle aged woman will be in the wrong. But we shouldn't assume and throw slurs her way, just because.

Karen as an insult in the UK is aimed at middle aged women so yeah, it is pushed back against on MN as it is a site used primarily by UK based users.

The history of Karen in USA afaik describes abhorrent and dangerous behaviour that puts black people at risk.

1week I don't see it as a slur. White women, be they middle aged or young, can in some instances use that to the detriment of say a Black person /POC c.f. Amy Cooper (I'm not sure she was middle aged tho). It's a term that recognises this particular phenomenon like 'white women's tears'. But much like other language such as 'woke', 'Karen' has now been co-opted by pretty much everyone who just wants to stick the boot in.

So do you mean that the issue is with the term Karen being misapplied to refer to middle aged women? That’s a reasonable comment - but does it actually happen that much? (Genuine question…) Okay so maybe the actual term Karen isn’t ideal, but it’s certainly useful to have some kind of term that points out and calls out the specific kind of oppression that ‘Karens’ perpetrate - it gets hidden otherwise and they continue to get away with it.

That's it really - we do need a name for behaviour that's beyond the pale in any specific way.
But it shouldn't be a name common to a particular demographic, because it expands to cover all of them. I've seen racists for example sneer at "Shaniqua's" doing x activity. It sounds horrible - you can criticise x activity without demonising a demographic.

And it seems to have expanded its remit - in the case of Karen it now means Middle age woman I disagree with, and the message is All middle aged women shut up.

What is the equivalent widely used word for males who systematically use their race, class and/or sex privilege to keep others down?

Oh yeah there isn't one. How unsurprising.

There is already a word for that - racist. Why do we need an age and gender specific term for racist, middle-aged, women?

@Ohsugarhoneyicetea

What is the equivalent widely used word for males who systematically use their race, class and/or sex privilege to keep others down?

Oh yeah there isn't one. How unsurprising.

This ^

@chesirecat99

There is already a word for that - racist. Why do we need an age and gender specific term for racist, middle-aged, women?

Indeed

Why is it necessary to highlight that it's is racism from a middle aged white woman. Is that particular racism worse than that from a young black male or an old disabled person

It’s Darren - my son told me this yesterday (or the day before, I forget).

@chesirecat99

There is already a word for that - racist. Why do we need an age and gender specific term for racist, middle-aged, women?

Agree totally that there should be an equivalent term for men who do similar, but in answer to your question, we need a specific term because it’s a specific group weaponising their privilege in a specific and targeted way. There needs to be some kind of term to refer to them, otherwise they can hide behind a blanket term. I know I suggested oppressors, but on reflection that too is a blanket term that obfuscates what Karens actually do to contribute to oppression.

@ineedsun

It’s Darren - my son told me this yesterday (or the day before, I forget).

That was a reply to @chesirecat99 and @Ohsugarhoneyicetea

Why is it necessary to highlight that it's is racism from a middle aged white woman.

Because it's a very specific phenomenon. It helps to have language to distinguish it. In any case smartphones are genuinely, and I'm not being hyperbolic, the best invention of our time.

I think it's better to target the behaviour than the demographic of the person who is doing the behaviour.

You can slice and dice society any way you want and you will find sections that disproportionately commit 'x' sin. No one is exempt.

It doesn't end well to conflate a section of society with a form of misbehaviour.

I thought the male equivalent was Ken, @ineedsun. That's kind of the point though, no one is sure about the male version of Karen.

@1Week

I think it's better to target the behaviour than the demographic of the person who is doing the behaviour.

You can slice and dice society any way you want and you will find sections that disproportionately commit 'x' sin. No one is exempt.

It doesn't end well to conflate a section of society with a form of misbehaviour.

I agree with this.

Creating a binary ‘Good’ or ‘Bad’ label against a cohort of real life individuals does little to strengthen any legitimate work in discussing and dismantling real issues.

It ends up with spending time on confusing argument like “There needs to be some kind of term to refer to them, otherwise they can hide behind a blanket term”

So your way to handle and dismantle racism involves creating derogatory language?

Why not just use the characteristics
The racism in the police force means that a white woman is believed more readily than the black one.

I am not sure how the age of the woman plays into this.

Which rather shows that using Karen is not helping us understand the specifics of this white middle aged female racism

So derogatory and failing in its mission to help improve understanding of racism

Pretty pointless then

@VladmirsPoutine

1week I don't see it as a slur. White women, be they middle aged or young, can in some instances use that to the detriment of say a Black person /POC c.f. Amy Cooper (I'm not sure she was middle aged tho). It's a term that recognises this particular phenomenon like 'white women's tears'. But much like other language such as 'woke', 'Karen' has now been co-opted by pretty much everyone who just wants to stick the boot in.

All of this. There is a specific type of weaponised victimhood that can be used. Status as a white woman. It's incredibly specific. It's obvious if you have a lot of dealings with the police. I was once dealing with police manhandling a young WoC somewhere I worked and I said, "excuse me officer, we age-checked her and she's 15". At which point the manhandling stopped abruptly. Not because the girl was 15, but because I was watching. That can be (and is) used for evil as well.

However, like 'Boomer' it's now not about the specific behaviour, it's about non-specific hatred for a group of people based on protected characteristics. I think the original behaviour needed to be addressed but now it's just misogyny. And maybe always had a piece of that as much more dangerous, violent racist behaviour by men doesn't have a named 'person'.